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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Ann Corrigan who wrote (224285)2/1/2002 12:39:28 PM
From: DMaA  Respond to of 769667
 
That is simply factually wrong.

Why are the most strident people on this subject usually men?

And more evidence that you are the most sexist voice on this thread.



To: Ann Corrigan who wrote (224285)2/1/2002 5:48:07 PM
From: haqihana  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
Ann Corrigan, Why was the woman bleeding to death in the back room of a butcher shop?? Was her life threatened by the human baby in her womb?? That might be justification for an abortion, but there are no more. Just because she, or her careless partner, created a pregnancy that she does not want to bring to full term, is not reason for desperation, or the taking of a human life. To use abortion as an accepted birth control measure, as you are suggesting, is the equivalent of murder in the first degree. I have heard the argument that it is the woman's body, but if she really gave a hoot about her body, she never would have put it in that position in the first place, regardless if it was the "missionary" position, or doggie style.



To: Ann Corrigan who wrote (224285)2/1/2002 5:55:05 PM
From: PROLIFE  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
Kathleen Howley's column

I am going to try to say this without sounding like a man-hating feminist. Here goes.

There are few things in life more disgusting than men who, when discussing abortion, use the phrase: "I can't tell a woman what to do with her body."

It's like a password. It's usually pronounced with a self-satisfied smile. They're saying, "I'm cool. I'm a supportive kinda guy. I'm sensitive to the needs of women."

Yea, right.

Sometimes, there's a slight reluctance in their voice as they recite the mantra. Those are the ones who believe that while they, personally, are opposed to abortion, they couldn't tell a woman...blah, blah, blah.

You've heard it before, I'm sure.

In most cases, these guys have never, in their lives, used the words "chaste" and "dating" in the same sentence. You can bet that many of them are pretty adroit at telling a woman what to do with her body, if it happens to serve their own needs.

Abortion, or "choice," as it's euphemistically called, becomes a requirement, for many of them, because it has the ability to erase any unforeseen problems caused by their lack of moral discretion.

I was at a G.O.P. cocktail party last week, and a man used that old line on me: "I can't tell a woman what to do with her body."

I gave him the logical response: "What about the body inside her womb? What if it's a male body, a little boy? Surely that can't be her body, because she can't be a man and a woman at the same time. Can you tell her, in that case?"

He looked at me glumly. This was not the response he expected. He probably assumed, because I'm a young woman, that I'm pro-choice.

Not a wise move. Three major studies within the last four years show that women tend to be more pro-life than men.

Makes sense, doesn't it? We're the ones with the maternal instincts, and if we know the facts of life -- meaning all the stuff you never read in the newspaper, such as what an abortion does to an unborn child -- many of us come down on the side of the baby.

I've been around enough men to know that they occasionally daydream about great feats they would perform if, for example, they suddenly found themselves trapped, with their whole platoon, under enemy fire. It's one of the most charming qualities of men, this desire to prove themselves to be brave and fearless.

But, so many men fail to realize that all around them, in our modern world, are opportunities to show their valor. Every day, they are confronted with opportunities to witness to the truth -- situations which, perhaps, take more courage than saving a platoon from enemy attack.

Once a month, I attend a rosary vigil with about 200 people in front of a local Planned Parenthood clinic. I see the woman going in for abortions, some reluctantly, some being steered through the door by a man who is probably the father of the baby.

After about 45 minutes, some of the men come out, alone, looking relieved. They did their duty and sat in the waiting room with their significant other until it was time for the abortion, and then they get to go off -- get a cup of coffee, read the paper -- while she's in the recovery room.

What bothers me is that most of these guys are dressed as if they were on a date -- as if they were on the way to the movies. Except, this date involves the destruction of their children, and the wounding of their girlfriends.

I'm with the early feminists, when it comes to abortion. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Dr. Alice Bunker Stockham, and the whole crowd of them were staunchly pro-life. They called abortion "child murder," and the "exploitation of women and children."

More emphatically, they pointed out that abortion primarily serves the needs of the predatory male. In a July, 1869, article in "The Revolution," the feminist newspaper edited by Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, the latter -- of current U.S. one-dollar coin fame-- wrote:

"Guilty? Yes, no matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; but oh! thrice guilty is he who, for selfish gratification, heedless of her prayers, indifferent to her fate, drove her to the desperation which impels her to the crime."

In her day, Susan B. Anthony was describing a tiny minority of men. Today, you'll run into hordes of them at just about any political cocktail party you attend.

But, still, there are countless other men who dare to swim against the tide -- men who respect life, and respect women, at a time when neither is required by the world.

Those are men who don't have to daydream about performing feats of great valor. They do it every day.

By Kathleen Howley



To: Ann Corrigan who wrote (224285)2/1/2002 5:57:15 PM
From: PROLIFE  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
Abortion: Male Coercion and Irresponsibility
Consider this: By vesting all reproductive responsibility in the woman, a pro-choice male creates a situation in which men can easily rationalize their irresponsibility toward women who choose not to abort. Plausible? Read on.

As Daniel Callahan puts it, ``If legal abortion has given women more choice, it has also given men more choice as well. They now have a potent new weapon in the old business of manipulating and abandoning women.`` Given that 80 percent of all abortions are sough by single women (according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute) the advent of reproductive rights has created a situation in which a man can coerce a woman to have an abortion by denying his responsibility towards her, or even abandoning her when she gets pregnant and ``chooses`` to carry the pregnancy to term.

According to feminist legal scholar Catharine MacKinnon, ``Sexual liberation in this sense does not free women, it frees male sexual aggression. The availability of abortion thus removes the one remaining legitimized reason that women had for refusing sex besides the headache.``

The anecdotal evidence for this interpretation is compelling. Consider an encounter captured in the CBS documentary ``The Vanishing Family: Crisis in Black America`` shown on January 26, 1986. The scene is a ghetto in Newark, New Jersey and journalist Bill Moyers is speaking to Timothy, a man in his early thirties who has fathered six children to four different women.

MOYERS: People out there watching are going to say, ``Why didn`t he think about this [his responsibility] before he brought six kids into the world?``

TIMOTHY: Well, the mother had a choice. She could have an abortion or she could have the child. She decided she wanted to have the child, so therefore, I guess it`s not sweating her.

MOYERS: So do you think it`s her fault she got pregnant?

TIMOTHY: Well, maybe, maybe not. I say, ``Mamma`s baby, Papa`s maybe.`` Ya know what I mean?

MOYERS: (later in the interview) Would you have had all these kids if you had thought about it?

TIMOTHY: No.

Empirical studies have also demonstrated that male coercion and pressure play a sizable role in many women`s abortion decisions. A survey from the Medical College of Ohio, for example, examined 150 women who ``identified themselves as having poorly assimilated the abortion experience.`` Of the 81 women who responded, more than one-third felt they had been coerced into having an abortion. Fewer than one-third initially considered the abortion themselves.

In cases where women initially chose to bear the child, their male partners were opposed to the decision by a margin of eight to one. In all of these cases, the man withdrew his support for his partner ``thereby eliminating that alternative.``

Even in Carol Gilligan`s famous study _In a Different Voice_, not all of the women`s abortion decisions she recounts were independent. Male coercion played an important role in about one-third of the cases cited. The men in the women`s lives were unwilling to provide their partners with the moral and material support for pregnancy, childbirth, and child rearing. As one of Gilligan`s respondents noted, ``He made me feel I had once choice to make and that it was to have an abortion and I could always have children another time, and he made me feel if I didn`t it would drive us apart.``

In all these cases, the logic goes something like this: since the man was willing to pay for an abortion, and since the woman had a constitutional right to get one even if he wished to prevent it, by her failure to obtain an abortion she took sole responsibility for the child. Therefore, the reasoning concludes, the man should not be liable for any child support.

Permissive abortion policy has created a climate where men can enjoy sexual relations with little or no concern for their consequences. Abortion is often misrepresented as solely a women`s issue; clearly, however, it is a men`s issue as well as long as men are interested in protecting their sexual liberty.

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