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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: tejek who wrote (142288)	2/3/2002 5:12:26 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 1578550

Eric, the statistics in the following links do not seem to support the suppostion you make above: True the statistics your provide do not support Eric's arguments but they do not make a strong argument against Eric either. I am only talking about the actual stats not the quotes which only show opinion and which I don't give any more weight then your opinion or mine. A link off of that site gun-control-network.org tries to counter the argument against gun control made by those who note that crime has increased in England since the gun ban, but it doesn't do a very good job of it, apparently because it misunderstands the arguement. It's central counter argument seems to be " Guns were used in only 4.7% of robberies in 1999 and 4.4% in 1998 so the problem is to a very large extent one of non-firearms crime. Our tight gun laws are undoubtedly responsible for the relatively rare use of guns in crime." However the point is not that the banning of guns has lead to an increase of gun crimes, but rather that because criminals know that people wont have a gun to defend themselves that crime and violent crime overall has increased. The information they give actually strengthens the argument against the gun ban because it shows that gun crime has also increased since guns where banned. The % of robberies where the criminal uses a firearm is only up slightly but it is up. Also since the number of robberies (and also other crimes that the web page does not address) is up by percentages in the double digits the total number of criminal use of guns is way up. Its interesting that the site is so anti-gun that it argues not only against private ownership of guns but against police normally carrying guns. Please note the immense difference between the US, and England and other countries in the rate of gun deaths per 100,000 population!!! cse.unsw.edu.au. You realize that this is info for a handful or years before or around 1920. Also it doesn't provide any information about the cultural or legal differences between the countries or between the different years looked at except mentioning the British gun control law of 1920. Since the more total gun ban in the UK in the late 90s violent crime in the UK has gone up (despite the fact that for much of that time period the UK was doing ok economically) while it has gone down in the US. Tim

To: tejek who wrote (142288)	2/3/2002 11:33:48 PM
From: d[-_-]b	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1578550

tejek, re: the statistics in the following links do not seem to support the suppostion you make How about statistics from the British Government themselves? archive.official-documents.co.uk Key Points In 1999/00, there were 6,843 offences recorded in which firearms other than air weapons were reported to have been used. This was 31 per cent higher than in 1998/99, and the highest number since 1993. The rise in recorded firearm offences in Scotland from 1998 to 1999 was 32 per cent. (Table 3.3) The proportion of homicides involving firearms in 1999/00 was 8.1 per cent. The proportion of robberies involving firearms (including air weapons) has remained in the 4 to 5 per cent range for the last three years. The number of firearm robberies increased by 32 per cent between 1998/99 and 1999/00, close to the general increase in recorded robberies of 26 per cent. (Tables 3.2, 3.1, Figure 3.1) Or this site: parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE 1997 FIREARMS REGULATIONS In summary the consequences of the regulations are that: — legally-held (non-muzzle loading) pistols can no longer be held for sporting purposes which makes England, Scotland and Wales unique among democratic and many non-democratic states of the world; — a majority of the more law-abiding members of a "free" society have been deprived of a sport and personal property through no fault of their own; — the ban has cost the tax payer an undisclosed figure which officially is stated to be about £150,000,000 but is estimated to be closer to £1 billion; — contrary to immediate post-ban announcements, the ban has not reduced firearms related crime which is hardly surprising given the predominance of illegally held firearms used; Or this: foresight-cfs.org.uk 'The 1999 Criminal Statistics for England and Wales' report reveals that firearms crime has increased dramatically since the ban on handguns in 1997/1998. It reveals an increase of 31% in firearms crime in the period 1999/2000 over the previous year - the highest since 1993. Furthermore, handguns feature in more than half of the total. The situation in Scotland is no better; figures released by the Scottish Executive for the year 1998/1999 show an increase in recorded firearms crime over the previous year by 32%, with 31% of the incidents involving handguns. The site you provided hasn't updated their statistics since 1998, less than a year after the 1997 ban. The government statistics I have provided do support my supposition.

To: tejek who wrote (142288)	2/4/2002 1:09:34 AM
From: d[-_-]b	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1578550

tejek, Yeah, that English example is just amazing! news.bbc.co.uk While Britain has some of the toughest firearms laws in the world, the recent spate of gun murders in London has highlighted a disturbing growth in armed crime. The shooting of a young woman in London by a mobile phone thief has again raised the issue of escalating gun crime in the UK. The attack follows a series of gun-related incidents in east London between Christmas and New Year, which included the case of two men who were killed by a single shot at a party. Weapons seized by the Met in 2000 included: Lanchester sub-machinegun capable of firing 550 rounds a minute Israeli Uzi sub-automatic machinegun capable of firing 750 rounds a minute Between April and November 2001, the number of murders in the Metropolitan Police area committed with a firearm soared by almost 90% over the same period a year earlier. Armed street robberies rose, in the same period, from 435 to 667 in 2001 - an increase of 53% - while overall in the capital there were 45,255 street robberies and snatches last year, against 32,497 in 2000. Much of the blame has been pinned on the trade in stolen mobile phones and up to half of all muggings are now thought to be for mobiles. With both street robberies and gun crime on a sharp increase, there are fears that the two trends will overlap and young muggers will, more and more, graduate from knives to firearms. Some of the 600 or so illegal weapons seized by the Met every year The worrying trend is not just in London. Birmingham, Manchester and Nottingham have also witnessed increasing gun crime. Police believe young men are mostly responsible for the attacks, which are often fuelled by rows in the lucrative crack cocaine market. There are even suggestions the recent spurt is down to inner city police officers being siphoned off to protect terrorist targets in the wake of the 11 September attacks in America. Muggings in London have risen by more than 40% since early September. In the capital, so-called "black on black" attacks have accounted for much of the increase in gun murders. Of the 30 firearm killings between April and November 2001, 16 were classed as "black on black". Special operation In response to this trend, the Met set up the intelligence-based initiative Operation Trident in March 1998, specifically to tackle "black on black" gun crime. Will all police officers one day be armed? The operation was deemed necessary because of the reluctance of witnesses to come forward through fear of reprisals from the criminals involved. Yet only a few years ago the British government led a rigid crackdown on gun ownership. Following the Dunblane massacre in 1996, in which 16 schoolchildren were killed by a lone gunman, the government hoped to nip in the bud Britain's burgeoning firearms culture with an outright ban on handguns. Although all privately-owned handguns in Britain are now officially illegal, the tightened rules seem to have had little impact in the criminal underworld. Millions of guns? No-one knows how many illegal firearms there are in Britain, although estimates range from between 200,000 to several million. Whatever the true figure, it is said to be growing daily. Young people with mobiles are becoming targets for street crime With so many deadly weapons on the streets of the UK's big cities, the next question seems to be whether Britain's famously unarmed police officers should carry guns as a matter of course. In recent years, the police have gradually become accustomed to firepower. Almost every force already has armed response vehicles, equipped and ready to attend the scene of a robbery or siege. But there appears to be unease at the prospect of rank and file officers carrying guns on the beat. Many fear that such a move would be counterproductive, inviting more criminals to arm themselves with higher grade weaponry. Almost 80% of PCs said they were not in favour of being routinely armed, according to a ballot carried out by the Police Federation in the mid 1990s. And in the event of a decision to arm all officers, only 43% said they would be prepared to carry guns on duty all the time. Yet the recent spate of attacks will only increase the feeling in some quarters that one day Britain's bobbies may have to cross this Rubicon.

To: tejek who wrote (142288)	2/4/2002 1:38:44 AM
From: d[-_-]b	Respond to of 1578550

tejek, re: the statistics in the following links do not seem to support the suppostion you make news.bbc.co.uk Police fears over rising gun crime Derek Bennett was shot dead in Brixton last month Gun crime in London is increasing so rapidly that police fear they may not have the resources to cope, the BBC has learned. Members of the Metropolitan Police's SO19 firearms unit say lack of staff, money and out-of-date equipment is threatening to affect their work. The BBC's Zubeida Malik says that at a meeting this week, officers reported there had been a 100% increase in firearms-related crime in the capital this year. This follows the publication of Home Office figures last month which showed that violent crime in England and Wales was continuing to rise. These criminals out there are very well equipped SO19 officer The London Borough of Lambeth had the highest rate of robberies. The borough was the focus of attention just over two weeks ago when police shot dead 29-year-old Derek Bennett - he was brandishing a gun-shaped cigarette lighter. Officers serving in SO19 told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that recruitment to the unit had dropped dramatically, and that the pressures of the job were taking a toll on members. The firearms unit deals with between 20 and 30 incidents a day. Formidable arsenals Its members say they deal with criminals whose weapons are more sophisticated than theirs, and who even wear body armour. Scotland Yard said this week than police in London may be issued with electric stun guns to defend themselves from violent criminals. The "taser" gun, which uses an electrical shock to cause temporarily paralysis, could be introduced by the end of the year. One SO19 officer told Today that when he joined the unit in 1995 there had been 750 applications, compared with just 120 last year. He said the unit needed more money to cope with the rise in violent crime. I think we're coping at the moment, but we mustn't be complacent SO19 officer "We need more personnel in the long term if we're going to keep up with things, but that's again a difficult matter, because of the fact we're not getting the people that want to join the department as we used to," he said "We must keep up-to-date with our equipment, and I don't mean just firearms, but the equipment we use in other instances, for example opening doors, all sorts of things. "If we're going to fight crime in London, and believe me, these criminals out there are very well equipped themselves, we need to be one step ahead. "I think we're coping at the moment, but we mustn't be complacent. "I would hate to think that we haven't got the correct resources and enough resources to deal with that crime that's going on there, because at the end of the day the buck stops with SO19 - there is no one else to deal with the gun crime in London." 'Instil confidence' Lord Mackenzie, former head of the Police Superintendents' Association, told the Today programme that the number of armed police should be increased to deal with the rise in gun-related crime. He added that officers needed to be "given confidence" to use firearms. "We pride ourselves in being unarmed but what we've got to do, obviously, is to give our officers the best training, the best equipment, and of course give them confidence," he said.