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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (18956)	2/16/2002 4:07:21 AM
From: frankw1900	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Polls are dangerous. They report, conveniently, the views of the hoi polloi. Something the Founding Fathers spent great effort to box out of national decision making in founding days of this nation. Some of them. There was quite a debate, I understand. Given the fact that mis-education of the masses is the goal and the achievement of many in the elite, it is totally hypocritical and disingenuous for them to trot out these silly polls to try to prove anything. I think also you should identify the elite and exactly how they are achieving this objective of mis-education of the masses. It sounds ambitious. Actually the extremely well informed participants of this thread didn't know about it, apparently. They read the Times, Post, etc, etc. I don't think anyone but me has trotted it out. And the point of their discussion was whether or not there might be support in the US for military engagement in Iraq. It appears there is - the questions weren't fudged. Foreign policy never has been driven by popular polls and never will be. Going to war is usually undertaken with popular support and the pols usually avoid it if the support isn't there. It will be driven by the convenience of the political fixers working the will of the corporate elite. Sometimes they do this and get in trouble - see Enron /India - but mostly they don't. On the otherhand, as a fella once said, in circumstances slighty discrediting, the business of america is business and indeed, that's what most folk here and most other places are doing: business. So there is rather a larger interest at play than you will admit. What is it that JPM-Chase and Citibank want us to do with the "Axel of Evil"? If you answer that, you've predicted American foreign policy They are large organizations Probably quite remarkable differences of opinion within them as with the american people. The tone of your post suggests they are venal. No doubt some of them are, but not the majority as with the majority of the american people. Prediction: No war. Concessions extracted instead. Big ones? Real ones? Do you really, really, in your heart of hearts, believe he'll keep his word? Remember, Hussein is a professional assassin and a psychopath. The stranglehold of the blue-eyed sheiks of Houston to continue a while longer. This stuff is totally cynical. Umm. Saddam's nerve gas and munitions program destined to underpin the nazi/Baath party, his equally nasty sons, and the expansionist ambitions they have? Perhaps W and all are being realistic and working to bite the bullet, rather than being as you say, "cynic" which I do believe you are using as a synonym for 'dishonest'. But profitable, if you can just fool the public. Which isn't much of a challenge. You underestimate us. Just as the rabid right did when it was chasing down Clinton and paid for it. I think you should re-evaluate your position.

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (18956)	2/16/2002 5:05:41 AM
From: LindyBill	Respond to of 281500

It will be driven by the convenience of the political fixers working the will of the corporate elite. What is it that JPM-Chase and Citibank want us to do Ray, neither right wing or left wing paranoia goes very far on this thread. Was I addressing my post to you? You are perfectly able to put my truth on "ignore". When you post something here, Ray, it is addressed to everybody who posts on this thread. There are a lot of strong opinions posted here, but none of of think we are God, and claim that what we post is "my truth". You obviously should find a thread where everyone agrees with you. LindyBill

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (18956)	2/16/2002 10:39:23 AM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Polls are dangerous. They report, conveniently, the views of the hoi polloi. Something the Founding Fathers spent great effort to box out of national decision making in founding days of this nation. Boy, do I disagree with this one. Understood correctly, they are wonderful tools. And in a quasi-democracy of the sort we have, where it's very difficult for the "hoi polloi" to have any effect on governance, they are at least one ongoing tool. As for the Founding Fathers, they didn't want anyone but folk like themselves to vote--you know the drill, Raymond, property owners, whites, males, etc. They definitely had fears of the " hoi polloi." But as one "hoi polloi" to another, I'm glad the political structures of the country let us, ever so slightly, into having some role. John