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To: Joe NYC who wrote (72018)	2/20/2002 8:27:17 AM
From: TechieGuy-alt	Respond to of 275872

I think this is an example of OpenSource (hoping to get somthing for nothing) gone crazy. And how is this a fault of Open Source? I think these guys are being very smart. These are called negotiating tactics. something MS has not had much experience with (being on the other side) I would gather!! TG Open source is not something that's going away. And it's not "free" or "something for nothing". It's about an idea that the common denominator (OS, Apps etc.) used by all is not a competitive advantage and competition in the larger scale is best served by having not only a least cost but most feature rich and robust denominator so that companies can go back to putting resources in differentiating their end product or services. (and if you listen to RS is its also about something called "freedom!).

To: Joe NYC who wrote (72018)	2/20/2002 10:59:09 AM
From: fyodor_	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 275872

Joe: I think this is an example of OpenSource (hoping to get something for nothing) gone crazy. I think $100 (or 100 euros) is a fair price for an OS + a set of productivity apps. Aside from the fact that I think you are way off base on the Open Source issue, you really need to check your pricing. An OEM version of WinXP (Home Edition), at least in Denmark, costs $130. An OEM version of MS OfficeXP (Small Business Edition) costs close to $300. That's well over $400 for an OS + productivity apps. -fyo

To: Joe NYC who wrote (72018)	2/20/2002 8:48:37 PM
From: pgerassi	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 275872

Dear Joe: Pricing aside (and I think you are incorrect as to the cost of Office XP per seat), the big portion of total costs is in retraining and computer upgrades needed to run the newer versions. In many previous upgrades, Microsoft messed up transition software and redid many interfaces causing many well working old templates and programs to fail both directly executed and transitioned to new. The cost of retraining people away from the older version's quirks and methods to the newer version which has different quirks and methods causes far more than a few hundred $. Some users refuse to switch. One of the hallmarks of open source is that things are grandfathered along (programmers who use the code they write or modify hate to relearn without extreme reasons for it). Old code, templates and the like are usually usable as-is on the new version with any exceptions well noted (unlike MS code)(for their rarity). Once learned, many OS tools and popular apps like 'vim' (OS version of vi) or 'emacs' (from older times) still work the same as they did 5 years, 10 years and more. Try writing the same paragraph in Word 1.0 and Word XP or over a longer period, use source that compiled on Microsoft BASIC v5.0 and use it on VB 7.0. Some corporations use software that's over 15 years old. I know of many applications during the Y2K scare that were looked at for the first time after 15 years being written on a COBOL compiler no longer even in existance with the source missing or not complete. Companies hate to retrain because it costs so much. Yes, it may cost them a bit to go with Star Office but, the underlying programs work the same as they did a few versions back and are more likely to work for many new versions in the future. 1 savings of a week's retraining and six months of getting back to speed can pay for 10-20 new versions at a few hundred $ each. MS still has not learned this yet. Pete

To: Joe NYC who wrote (72018)	2/21/2002 12:04:18 PM
From: TimF	Respond to of 275872

"The new terms incorporate a software leasing model - forcing councils to install the newest versions of Microsoft software, whether councils need them or not, Hans Lembøl, an IT manager for the city of Slagelse, in Denmark, said. " I think this is an example of OpenSource (hoping to get something for nothing) gone crazy. Maybe a bit but its also an example of Microsoft getting greedy, and if people don't look to open source there isn't a lot of competition. Not only is the price going up 30% but the pricing structure is changing to make it a lease where the city would be required to pay for each new upgrade. Many times companies don't want to go to a new version right away or sometimes even ever. My company went from Office 95 to Office 2000 skipping 97. We are also passing on Office XP. If we had to follow the lease agreement that Slagelse is getting we would have had to pay for the versions of the software that we didn't want to use. Tim