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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Mr. Whist who wrote (229304)2/21/2002 1:39:14 AM
From: Rollcast...  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
This hasn't been an ultra-right-winger issue.

It is primarily a parents-who-want-some-choice-in-where-their-children-go-to-school vs. the teachers-unions-who-want-to-maintain-their-monopoly-and-stanglehold-on-public-funds issue.

So I guess Mr. Big Labor Dem is anti-choice....

You have got to be a teacher, flopjack.

Those look like the only Unions the dems are going to keep...

The Teamster's are beginning to see the deception of the pretend party of the common man... more will follow.



To: Mr. Whist who wrote (229304)2/21/2002 6:14:42 AM
From: Selectric II  Respond to of 769667
 
And those who teach them are homo sapiens. Do you expect people to be so stupid as to believe that allowing school vouchers in any way repeals other laws, e.g. criminal statutes?

School vouchers are on their way to victory in the Supreme Court, it appears, following oral argument during which the NEA general counsel made a fool and an ass of himself in front of the Supreme Court:

law.com. Supreme Court Hears School Voucher Case
Tony Mauro
American Lawyer Media

February 21, 2002



The school voucher movement appeared to be on its way to a major constitutional victory before the U.S. Supreme Court Wednesday.

During oral arguments in an Ohio case considered crucial to the future of voucher programs nationwide, key swing Justice Sandra Day O'Connor appeared largely untroubled by the argument that taxpayer-funded vouchers, as they operate in Cleveland, overwhelmingly benefit religious schools. Under the program, poor students can use state vouchers worth $2,250 to pay for private school tuition as an alternative to public schools.

Even though 99 percent of the Cleveland students using vouchers attend religious schools, O'Connor suggested repeatedly that the benefit to religion is much less pronounced when the voucher program is considered together with traditional government funding for public and charter schools as well as for tutoring in the public schools.

"Do we not have to look at all the choices?" when evaluating the constitutional question, O'Connor asked at one point.

Though post-argument predictions were hard to come by in Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, No. 00-1751, it appeared that if O'Connor votes in favor of vouchers, she would seal at least a five-vote majority.

"The arguments went very, very well," leading voucher advocate Clint Bolick told more than 100 cheering demonstrators in front of the Court, just moments after the 80-minute hearing. Bolick, vice president of the Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Justice, did not argue himself.

The trio of lawyers who did argue in support of the voucher program -- Ohio Assistant Attorney General Judith French, private practitioner David Young, and U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson -- made a seamless presentation that appeared to calm some of the concerns expressed by justices over the church-state issue.

French assured the Court that the voucher program was neutral -- available to all students depending only on income and residence -- and that no money passed to religious institutions without the "true private choice" of parents.

Justice John Paul Stevens countered that parental choice was part of the parochial aid program the Court struck down nearly 30 years ago in the landmark case Committee for Public Education & Religious Liberty v. Nyquist.

"It's the same case," Stevens said.

But French and Young distinguished the cases by noting that the Cleveland voucher program includes money for tutoring that goes to public schools and is also open to suburban public schools.

Justice Stephen Breyer suggested that the program would give someone "from Africa or Europe" the impression that "a very large amount of money is being paid to parochial schools."

But Young, partner in the Columbus, Ohio, office of Cleveland's Squire, Sanders & Dempsey, insisted "there is no government endorsement" because so many other tax dollars go to public schools. "The preference is clearly for the secular schools," Young said.

Olson bolstered the point, describing the Cleveland plan as a "pilot program, an experimental program" initiated because of a "manifestly failing system" of public education. He also suggested that the program may not always have the same heavy concentration of religious schools that it now does. Under Milwaukee's voucher program, not before the Court, the number of nonreligious schools has been rising, Olson said.

Robert Chanin, the main anti-voucher advocate, ran into trouble with O'Connor almost immediately. She had already signaled that the Cleveland program should not be viewed in isolation, but Chanin did so anyway, saying that as the program has evolved, it is a "mathematical certainty" that taxpayer money will go to sectarian schools.

When O'Connor challenged him to take the broader view, Chanin said the Court has always looked at individual programs when deciding whether they violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

"You ask us to put on blinders," said Justice Anthony Kennedy.

"We are asking you to look at the reality," countered Chanin, general counsel of the National Education Association.

"Part of the reality," corrected Kennedy.

As Chanin proceeded, his passionate presentation bordered on a harangue, with his voice rising as he waved an angry finger at the justices. Vouchers are a "lousy option" for curing the problems of Cleveland schools, he said with disgust. "I don't think a crisis in Cleveland schools is a license to ignore" the First Amendment, Chanin added.

Asked if the constitutional balance would change if only 50 percent of the voucher students went to parochial schools, Chanin snapped, "Not in my mind." Eventually he conceded that if only one of 100 voucher students went to a religious school, his objections would not be as strong.

But Chanin continued to resist the analysis offered by O'Connor. "So far you are doing a very good job of not answering Justice O'Connor's questions," said Kennedy at one point.

Rehnquist also became exasperated, telling Chanin he had clearly not answered the Court's concerns satisfactorily. When Chanin started to respond, interrupting Rehnquist, the chief justice's face began to redden.

Chanin backed off, saying he did not mean to interrupt Rehnquist. "You better not," Rehnquist said sharply.

The argument ended on another unusual note, with retired federal judge Marvin Frankel arguing against vouchers from a seated position. Frankel, 81, a longtime expert on church-state issues and a partner in New York's Kramer ~~~~~ Naftalis & Frankel, was recently hospitalized.

In contrast to Chanin's aggressive style, Frankel spoke almost too softly. He sought to place the voucher issue in a different context, viewing it as a diversion from Ohio's statewide efforts to correct inequities in school funding.

Rehnquist and Scalia politely suggested that Frankel's argument was not relevant to the establishment clause issue before the Court.

Frankel said his points were raised in the lower courts but "slipped by them," and he continued reviewing the history of the school funding issue until his time was up.



To: Mr. Whist who wrote (229304)2/21/2002 8:16:24 AM
From: greenspirit  Respond to of 769667
 
The same scenario's you've outline can be taxpayer supported today in higher education via grants, low interest loans and such.

The reason you don't see it happening. Or rarely see it happening, is because the customers (students and parents) don't want them.

Higher education in America today is sound because the system (in most cases), is closely aligned to the customer.

Given the same fears you've outlined, we should shift all our centers of higher education completely under the governments control. Do you think quality would go up if we did that flapjack? Do you think college education would improve if the government completely took it over and monopolized the system?

If not, why not?

These are simple questions which the left loving government only answering NEA defenders will never address.

Fear is their only weapon. They fear change. They fear that some form of partial vouchers will demonstrate that structural changes can have profound effects on the quality of education. When it happens, (as surely it will one day) the Teachers union will steadily lose its vice like grip of power over parents and students and be forced to respond to *customer* demands. They will be forced to quit making excuses for poor performance. Be forced to quit blaming parents for every problem they have because a school right next door and around the block will be succeeding.

Markets, customers, value and change are something which scares the heck out of the socialists who run the Teachers Union. It scares them because they know how much of a powerful force it can be. It scares them because they know once the system of public education is aligned to the parents, they will have to measure up, and get rid of the dozens of layers of bureaucracy which choke the system and create waste everywhere.