SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: frankw1900 who wrote (20032)2/26/2002 8:36:18 AM
From: Ilaine  Respond to of 281500
 
I have always doubted the proposition that because you can't find an earlier book about something, that means that the author was the first person to think of it.

Deriving fascism from Plato is like saying democracy is an Athenian idea, completely disregarding democracy in other cultures, e.g., tribal forms of democracy in Germanic and Celtic cultures (Welsh moots, Norse parliaments, etc.) and even earlier forms of Greek democracy (Spartan).

Viking democracy - they did not have written history until later than the Greeks did, but can you say their democracy derived from the Greeks? Why not vice versa? Or both from somewhere else. Without knowing, don't we have to say that as far as we know they developed independently?

time.com

We're both in agreement that fascism is a name for something that existed before Mussolini was born. Apparently we differ as to whether it existed and exists without the benefit of political philosophers. I maintain that political philosophers described the phenomenon, rather than inventing it.

I believe it's a reaction of the authoritarian power structure to the contradictions and uncertainties of democracy and free trade, which threaten the status quo and the artificially protected economic bases. Subjugation of the individual to the state, nationalism/nativism, imperialism, protectionism, rejection of democratic institutions, structurally supported violence towards "the other" within the body politic -- it's so much like an organic reaction by a threatened animal that I can't believe it's philosophical in origin. To me, that's like saying that philosophers invented monarchy.

But I recognize that this is heresy when speaking to people who believe that ideas come from writers, rather than writers writing down ideas which are all around him/her, as I believe.



To: frankw1900 who wrote (20032)2/26/2002 10:29:47 AM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
BTW, I agree with the assessment of Islamism as a form of fascism.

I think the desire to hang fascism on Hegel and Marx is a reaction by the right to the desire of the left to hang it on the right.

I am browsing through JSTOR, a database of scholarly journals, and so far I've seen the following listed as historical antecedents to fascism: Joseph de Maistre, Thomas Carlyle, who I believe were conservative, and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who I believe was a nationalist anarchist, and Rousseau who probably qualifies as on the left, not sure exactly where.

Also Machiavelli, Hobbes, Nietzsche, Bodin, Donoso Cortes, Bonald, Sorel, and I think I'll stop the list here. The first three I've read, can't classify, never heard of the last four (I've heard of Sorel, maybe, name rings a bell.)

At any rate, my definition of fascism is borrowed from historian Robert O. Paxton:

"1) primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether universal or individual;
2) the belief that one's group is a victim, a sentiment which justifies any action against the group'e enemies, internal as well as external;
3) dread of the group's decadence under the corrosive effect of individualism and cosmopolitan liberalism;
4) closer integration of the community within a brotherhood (fascio) whose unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary;
5) an enhanced sense of identity and belonging, in which the grandeur of the group reinforces individual self-esteem;
6) authority of natural leaders (always male)throughout society, culminating in a national chieftan who alone is capable of incarnating the group's destiny;
7) the beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle." Robert O. Paxton, "The Five Stages of Fascism," The Journal of Modern History Volume 70, Issue 1 (March, 1998), 1-23, at 6-7.

Paxton states that "early fascisms were so ubiquitous that we can hardly attribute their origin to any particular national intellectual history. George Mosse has fingered post-Enlightenment Germany; Sternhall, France at the turn of the century, followed by Italian disciples. A body of thought that one can call "protofascist" appeared even in the United States at the turn of the century. Brooks Adams, scion of a great New England dynasty, descendent of two presidents of the United States, lamented the moral decline of the United States as a result of the concentration of financial power. Later on, in 1918, Adams believed he had found the remedy to American decline in an authoritarian regime directing a state socialism. After the first World War, the United States, too, entered the 'magnetic field' of European fascisms. 'Colored shirt' movements sprang up, such as the 'Silver Shirts' or 'S.S.' of William Dudley Pelley." Id. at 11-12.

Brooks Adams, like his brother Henry, was anti-Semitic, and repulsed by the flood of Southern European and Eastern European immigrants at the turn of the last century.

Paxton suggests that the historial antecdence to fascism was the Ku Klux Klan, which was set up during Reconstruction to restore an overturned social order. "The Klan constituted an alternative civic authority, parallel to the legal state, which, in its founders' eyes, no longer defended their community's legitimate interests. In its adoption of a uniform (white robe and hood) as well as its techniques of intimidation and its conviction that violence was justified in the cause of the groups' destiny, the first version of the Klan in the defeated American South was a remarkable preview of the way fascist movements were to function in interwar Europe." Id. at 12.