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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: TimF who wrote (142954)	2/27/2002 11:57:35 AM
From: i-node	Respond to of 1574103

I think many Europeans are to quick to bash the US. I also agree that our protection our military presense helps other countries so in a sense it is foreign aid. And when it does hit the fan who does the world look to? I'll give you a clue it isn't France. This phenomenon is a natural result of seeking European approval for every action we take -- dating back to the Gulf War and Bush I, but more so in the years following. By doing so, we have created a situation where Europe thinks it has veto power on anything we do -- even on issues of our self defense.

To: TimF who wrote (142954)	2/27/2002 12:55:05 PM
From: Bert Herman	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1574103

Hi Tim, It's been a while since I involved myself in a discussion, but as a European with an open mind and a lot of respect for America, I couldn't resist to share my opinion. In my entire life, I have never seen greater support for America as after september 11. American politicians came over, NATO declared war and everybody was ready to step in. You may not believe this, but for the green parties in Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands etc, who have a background in the peace movement of the seventies and eighties, it was an incredible huge step to declare war. Everybody had the feeling western democraty and western values where attacked. But after that, once America knew it had the support of enough allies, nothing happened. Yes, England and Germany delivered a few dozen special forces, and that's it. It was a major mistake from the Bush administration, to do the Afghan war alone. Suppose you are in trouble, you ask all your friends for help. They all agree to come and help you, arrange there schedules, prepare everything and then you say: Sorry ,I don't need you, I can better do it on my own. Would't you think at least some of your friends would be a little bit angry? It's that feeling which is pretty common in Europe today. An other long time point of conflict between America and Europe is military spending. In Europe, the view is common that America, in spite of some rethoric doesn't want a military strong Europe. Or let me put it different, they want our military money, but not our voices. For decades, America is lobbying against one European army. For the single reason they are afraid of losing control over it. Now , in NATO, they control everything. I'm pretty sure, Europe will only increase military spending if there is one European army, and the way America acted in this war, will only increase this process. I think we should have had one European army already for a long time, maybe you think the same, but American government clearly doesn't think so. Sorry, I have to go now, I will be back later today. Greetings, Bert

To: TimF who wrote (142954)	2/27/2002 2:17:14 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1574103

Overall he might exagerate a bit but I think a lot of what he says is true. I think many Europeans are to quick to bash the US. I also agree that our protection our military presense helps other countries so in a sense it is foreign aid. And when it does hit the fan who does the world look to? I'll give you a clue it isn't France. Tim, first off we seem to be playing the current war scenario whichever way works for us with little input from Europe. Oh yeah, at the beginning, we asked for Europe's support and affirmation but then when it became clear that Europe did not want it to go any further than Afghanistan, we stopped asking. Secondly, one minute this whole thing is a war and therefore secret military tribunals are justified, then in the next minute, this is not a war and we do not have to house the prisoners in accordance with the Geneva Convention. If I were a European leader, I would be a little surprised that the US which claims to be God's chosen, the super power with a heart, twists the laws to suit its own purposes. Thirdly, the US's strong shift to the right has caught most of Europe off guard. My European friends remark on that issue all the time. Finally the fact that we are a superpower with the largest nuclear arsenal hell bent on cleaning up the world in our image I think would be a little disconcerting to anyone, friend or foe. As for the author, how old is he? He talks about Europe being steeped in aristocratic socialism and envious of the US. I think both were true may be in the middle part of the twentieth century but not now. Why would Europe be envious?There lifestyle is generally better than us...yes, we might have a bigger GDP or whatever but the average Western European lives well with less people living on skid row. Their cities are very liveable; they don't have the smog problems we do; there are reasonable alternatives to the car; they can travel by train and not have to worry about flying into a bldg. etc. I could go on but its ridiculous to think that South America will replace Europe as our allies any time in the next 50 years. S. America, after centuries of turmoil, has just begun to realize some political and economic stability.....and that stability is very tenuous at best. Like I said, that guy has been laying in the CA sun for too long. ted