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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: frankw1900 who wrote (21705)	3/19/2002 10:44:45 AM
From: BigBull	Respond to of 281500

Wow! Great post! I think the author also makes a great point about folks having to have an almost "Damascus Road" personal experience before things sink in. Merely reading about this stuff isn't enough to produce or internalize galvanizing insight. It almost as if the right keys have to be played to hit the right notes before the key gets turned. I wonder what will do it for "Hollywood"? That community has been very conflicted around 911. No Frank Capra doing "Why We fight" or even a Goya cranking out anti-Napolean prints or Beethoven changing the name of a symphony in disgust. I expect that's coming though. The execution of Daniel Pearl probably turned a lot of heads, I'm thinking.

To: frankw1900 who wrote (21705)	3/19/2002 1:15:32 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Respond to of 281500

Yes, excellent post, frank. Also, I think the comparison of the Israeli/Pal conflict to the Spanish Civil War is apt. If the tactics succeed there, they will be used elsewhere.

To: frankw1900 who wrote (21705)	3/19/2002 3:29:09 PM
From: Win Smith	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Right now there is a very decentralized movement for multi national genocide. There is evidence for this in Egypt, Nigeria, Sudan, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia: genocidal propaganda, experimental murders and displacement. What "decentralized movement for multi national genocide" are you talking about, perchance? Israel? Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself. Sensible procedure for the present crisis would be for Nato, Russia, Israel and India to destroy Pakistan's nuclear base, replace it's military leadership, jail its renegade intelligence and miltary folk for long periods, establish real government in its tribal territories, dismantle the madrassas, and jail surviving islamofascists till they rot: Invade Iraq and establish a real democracy there. Then threaten to do the same to Syria unless it cleans up its act forthwith. Stop buying oil from the Saudis until they stop issuing passports to 700 AD and put down their terrorists. No aid for Egypt until it cleans up the genocidal messages in its newspapers and Mubarrak stops pandering to the islamofacists. Oh yes, clean out the Palestinian terrorist leadership and send Arafat to St Helena permanently. Follow the Hamas and like trails right up to the relevant doorsteps around the world and make serious demands with nasty consequences for non compliance. Nice fantasy laundry list. Let's start just at the beginning, with Pakistan. Pakistan is a nasty country. But the US has, for various and sundry reasons, done its best to cozy up to Pakistan for the last 30+ years at least, dating back to Kissinger's secret missions to China and the nasty little civil war that lead to the creation of Bangladesh. Many of those 30 years included a bizzarre yearly certification by the executive branch that Pakistan was not developing nukes, when everybody knew they were. Pakistan was convenient to Kissinger in the 70's, convenient to Carter and Reagan in the '80s Afghanistan effort, convenient to W this past year. That, and the Indians always had this neutralist thing with the Russians that never set very well with the US, despite India's rather remarkably admirable record as a functioning democracy. I don't see any particular indication that Pakistan is less nice now that it was then. Some large scale military operation against Pakistan is a nice fantasy. I guess they would have to fall in line after Iraq. In the real world, it might be nice, but the coming military op against Iraq will/would likely leave the US military with a substantial occupation problem to go with the existing trail of obligations in Afghanistan, Kosovo, and Bosnia. Pakistan would be much worse. Compare the level of resources that would be required for the kind of large scale intervention in the middle east/ muslim world with post WWII reconstruction of Europe and the creation of NATO. The resources required would likely be about the same order of magnitude, in the best of circumstances. Except that the middle east would likely be far less favorably inclined to accept a large US military presence peacefully. As far as bad countries go, I can't even see the middle east/ Arab / Muslim world as the worst, by worldwide standards. Africa has bigger problems, as near as I can see, with various marginally functional governments ready to disappear into complete chaos and anarchy at a moment's notice. I don't have any inside contacts in the US government or military. I imagine there are plenty of low and mid level military types willing to join in this kind of talk in private. I would imagine that the top level military, which understands the logistics involved and the long term commitments that would be required, don't really go in much for this kind of "realism". I would guess that when Perle and Wolfowitz come calling, they talk politely, commiserate, maybe even spin out some scenarios, but that they also thank the lord for Colin Powell when the doors close, "clueless" though Powell may be in Nadine's estimation.