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Pastimes : THE SLIGHTLY MODERATED BOXING RING -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (3681)	3/20/2002 1:05:18 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (5) \| Respond to of 21057

I don't mind answering you, although it puts me in harm's way in respect of an infinite tussle with E. Let me start with an exchange so long ago the other party will probably not recall it. I was arguing with one of our regulars about the psychological utility of religion, in helping people to cope with life, and happened to mention that my maternal grandmother, who had died recently, and who was sick for a long time, took a great deal of comfort from returning as a regular communicant to the Catholic Church. The person coldly responded that someone at the gallows will grab hold of anything. I thought that crossed the line. Let's see: I consider that the interminable case building against religion that used to be done by people like Solon, in the earlier life of the Boxing Ring, shows a decided animus. I mean, how much can one flog the Crusades, which occured over 500 years ago? Even the Spanish Inquisition was over 500 years ago, and is conspicuous by being limited to one country, being conducted under the authority of the Crown, and being protested by the Vatican. What does this have to do with the ordinary man in the pew? Then, when I provide copious evidence that the rescue of European Jewry was largely accomplished by persons of faith, or mention all of the charitable work accomplished by the churches (schools, orphanages, soup kitchens, and so on), or talk about the culture shaping power of religion in respect of ideas like human rights, I am dismissed. Somehow, religion is to blame for all the negative activities with which it may be associated, but the positive activities would occur willy- nilly, without religion playing a role. That is sheer axe grinding. I consider it strange and irritating of professed agnostics to portray believers as irrational. In the absence of certain knowledge, one is at liberty to opine, and belief in a deity is surely no more irrational than denial of a deity. Indeed, to be constantly accused of bias or wishful thinking is itself offensive. It is apparent that the "seculars" tend to dislike religion and to cast secularity in positive terms. They may as well be accused of bias and wishful thinking, as well. They will protest that they have their reasons, but so what, believers have their reasons for preferring belief. It is an impasse. I want to give this some more thought, to see if I can get closer to providing a "line", but it is enough to evoke a response from you......

To: Lane3 who wrote (3681)	3/20/2002 4:14:06 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 21057

"I would very much like to get a better sense of where that line is. " A few years ago I had some associates that made very good money providing organizational consulting services. Their typical approach was to go into an organization and do observations of human interactions, interviews, climate and culture surveys, etc. At the end of their study they would document their findings and recommend goals for improving the culture of the organization. I asked the eldest and most experienced of the group if there was anything about organizational culture that he would identify as a standard source of problems. The answer was yes...one thing is 100% always at the foundation of organizational issues. He told me, if you want to impress anyone, walk into their company, take a quick look around, curl your eyebrow, scratch your head and suggest that they may have some "communication" issues. Communication is always a factor in any organizational issue. Set goals for improving communication and associate that with culture, production, climate, quality of life or what ever and you are gauranteed to have an impact because it is associated with every aspect of organizational life and process. We can blame bad communication for poor results and give credit to good communication for beneficial results; but should we say since communication issues are always present when things are going badly, communication should be opposed? Of course that is irrational. Likewise, for us believers. When non-believers point the finger at corruption associated with religion and conclude that religion is bad, we find it irrational.