To: Lane3 who wrote (3714 ) 3/20/2002 3:21:25 PM From: Neocon Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 21057 I make no point intended to be universal with respect to non- believers. I merely am trying to indicate what sort of thing I think crosses the line. I do not know why it is a matter of controversy that the first example fits the requirement. You say that it is bad manners, as if that covers it, and as if the specifics of the exchange are meaningless. I cannot get my mind around your response, I confess. It was meant to belittle an old women with congestive heart failure, facing death, for reaching out to the Church. It was done in the context of a response to her grandson, who had recently sustained the loss. It was not analytic, it was nasty, and showed contempt for a normal human response in the face of adversity and death. I don't even know why you bring in the matter of people embracing religion at the end, since that was not a disputed matter. The issue is the attitude evinced. What is so hard about that? The point is, why make a big deal out of it at all? What purpose is served? Why all of the case building resting on things that are centuries old, or that had other important elements (like protecting Eastern trade routes), or that are grotesquely misrepresented or blown out of proportion (like the Spanish Inquisition)? Your position is like saying that attacking the Torah and Talmud in inflammatory terms does not reflect contempt for believing Jews. After all, the assertion is not "the Medieval Roman Catholic Church was bad", but that religion is bad and that belief causes turmoil, and that what may have happened centuries ago has some bearing on how to view your local parish. Furthermore, most people belong to some sort of organized religion, although it is not universal, of course.