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To: thames_sider who wrote (5050)	3/27/2002 12:49:16 PM
From: J. C. Dithers	Respond to of 21057

...what of crimes such as 'conspiracy', or attempted murder, or indeed fraud? I think these all involve overt acts. The law does inquire into intent, as in voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, but then the intent is deduced from the facts of the case. You are right in that a person's state of mind is at issue, but not any more than "deliberate" or not We do recognize a category of "heinous" crimes, such as one carried out with exceptional cruelty. I see your point about a crime essentially motiveless except for who the person is ... but I'm not ready to agree that such a crime is worse than one with clear motive. It comes down to whether one should deserve extra punishment for simply being hateful, and I'm not with the program on that one.

To: thames_sider who wrote (5050)	3/27/2002 1:06:02 PM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

I agree about the especial nastiness of hate crimes; it's a visceral reaction. But the law, without making motives the crime as opposed to the act (conspiring is an act, attempting murder is an act, defrauding is an act), already acknowledges mitigating and aggravating circumstances. The same crime now, according to such circumstances, can receive a light or heavy sentence. It can yield death or a few years with time off for good behavior. I personally am discomfited at the idea of making hate the crime as opposed to the act that the hate spawned. (Sitting around planning a hate crime... that's already a conspiracy.) Beating somebody's head to a pulp for the contents of their wallet isn't exactly loving, we should remember, even if it is a race/sex/religion-blind crime.

To: thames_sider who wrote (5050)	3/27/2002 1:09:45 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

So we finally did make it to 1984: Thought Crime.

To: thames_sider who wrote (5050)	3/27/2002 1:15:49 PM
From: jlallen	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

I do not practice criminal law but I do remember a few things (I think) from law school. As I recall it, "mens rea" or intent is always a part of any analysis of a crime. A conspiracy charge must always include some sort of overt act toward completing the conspiracy to stick... JLA