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To: epicure who wrote (5977)	3/31/2002 12:11:07 AM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 21057

The problem with "faith" , is when it it becomes a "mindset" and is turned into a vehicle of fear , suppression and exclusion ....and hatred . Putting certain "scriptures" in the wrong hands, rigid and weaker minds becomes a weapon of the above . Rather than a body of enlightened thought that invites discourse and open exchange between peoples and an imparting of brotherly love or compassion . It becomes a sort of permanent distortion and used to maintain open wounds and closed shutters between men for centuries. Interpreters of scriptures that have too great a number of references and emphasis of everlasting Hell and eternal damnation are always dangerous . Much of the original messages of redemption get misplaced and incredibly distorted irrational beliefs and world view are the result. Hell is an such easy image to proliferate... as most all men fear social banishment , but when you tag on --->eternity it tends to take on naturally an even more ominous and forboding cast. Add the promise of instant heaven and immortality , and sanctioned violence that is virtuous in the name of God , you get 17yr old suicide bombers following another tolerated "holy" warped scripture . Us and them... ....for the much of the "great Religions" who's majority of followers are mostly ignorant to the essential message of their Prophets and Messiahs, "Faith" can be such a dangerous thing , and many of the recipies for blatant human hatred and ignorance is often the result. It is so easy for the "Faithful" each successive generation continue to blame the Pagan , Agnostic , Atheist & Unbeliever or just the "other guys" for every bad turn of events or social breakdown. It is God's wrath and punishment for not believing as they do ... (Though not much effort is ever made to understand the other guys when God's 2000yr old words is all we have left to guide us...he has been rather silent for some centuries) Trouble is the messages were so vague and contradictory to begin with , and absolutely wrong in assuming an Eternal Hell , with Eternal Suffering was ever part of God's plan ... Religions that teach the above ideas are completely immature and delluded , and not operating under the auspices of any "TRUTH" , imo . They are in reality only surviving early Medieval Relics , unless they learn to change and grow out of their infancies and become part of the world at large. Nature will take it's course in the end , and they will change ...for the earth is getting smaller all the time and interdependence and cooperation is a given , if any people wishes to really survive...

To: epicure who wrote (5977)	3/31/2002 12:13:25 AM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 21057

Here's a clasic example of such an interpretation of the scripture of Salvation and the Scripture of the "damned" in times of national duress: Post from Chris Land Sept 23rd 2001: Message 16402279 " Frederick, the fags, perverts, femi-nazi's, ACLU supporters, abortion performers, satirists, athiests, commies, etc never supported Falwell or Robertson to begin with. No loss, as I'm sure they never counted on their support in the first place. The truth is, God knew what was going to happen and could have prevented it. Did he? Recall he told the Israel of old that if they refused to listen to him he would destroy them. Did he keep his word? He said that he would turn over a nation to their enemies if they departed from him, has America been turning it's back upon God? Before you answer that keep in mind that prayer in school has been outlawed as a crime against atheists. " it goes on... I am sure it can be explained away ....all it takes is enough "Faith" and enough similar mindsets, real or imaginary, and a vague and confused and often violent scripture 2000yrs old to follow of Eternal Hell and the end of the wicked world , and the chosen "saved" (faithful)... <G> ;-(

To: epicure who wrote (5977)	3/31/2002 12:42:46 AM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

And what is one man's perversion is for another man--> Art : Message 13839439 It's too bad we have been burdened by those fig-leaves, and that infantile & confused Genesis with all that distorted scriptural cosmology and so many theological little tyrants for all these centuries of shame . Lovely the way all you guys so loved this person Edwarda... and I had to run a search and go back and relive that time she was here. to you , Neo , Shootie , Sherry Jorj , and all the rest , Very well done.

To: epicure who wrote (5977)	3/31/2002 10:02:50 AM
From: J. C. Dithers	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21057

I'm not seeing the proof that brings us to the thus. There is no proof, and never will be. Let me put it this way: You, X, already believe something that is absolutely incredible: Once upon a time, 12 billion years ago, there was NOTHING (close you eyes, block your ears ...imagine NOTHING). Then there was a really HUGE bang. BAMMMMMM!!!!! Somehow a constant amount of matter and energy came to be, although no one knows how. It was so tiny at first that you could have held what came to be the earth, all the planets, stars, galaxies ...everything that is .... right in the palm of your hand, if you had been there. BAMMMMM!!!! It grew immense in just a flash and flew off in all directions at once! Right now, right outside your window, it's still flying off in all directions at the speed of light, and no one knows where it's going. You are going with it, and no knows where!! Isn't THAT an incredible story? Does it sound rational and logical? Yet I'm sure you believe it. Is it because "scientists" tell you so? (And not all scientists do). Aren't these the same scientists who would have told you in the year 1200 that the earth was flat? That the earth was the center of the universe? Would you have believed those things because the scientists said so? I believe my fable of the Big Bang (right now, anyway) because even though it sounds utterly incredible, my reason and logic tell me that the universe had to come about somehow, and I'll accept that particular account by the scientists (which in itself constitutes a kind of "faith," since I can neither prove nor truly understand this theory for myself). Since I go one step further than you in my own reason and logic, and add the idea of a creator (as many scientists do), it is consistent for me to seek some explanation or accounting of the nature of that creator. That accounting may also be incredible, but no more so than the first story. That is about the best I can do to explain the chain of my reasoning. There is no way any of us can explain our existence without accepting the incredible, because our existence IS incredible. Your own explanations are different than mine, but neither of us is being illogical of irrational in choosing to believe what we do. If there is some different truth that neither of us has yet discovered, it also must of necessity be profoundly incredible. There simply cannot be a credible truth, given the inadequacy of our intellects to comprehend our existence.