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To: Lane3 who wrote (6042)	3/31/2002 3:00:26 PM
From: cosmicforce	Respond to of 21057

This is largely a reaction to changes in our society. When we were a more monolithic society, people were actually under higher levels of stress. I think there was more of what we call "child abuse" 150 years ago than now. But, if you are on an isolated farm and your child refuses to harvest the carrots, you may starve. Faced with starvation and smacking the kid into compliance, it was probably a pretty easy choice. My kids whine about picking up their own toys. Can I morally justify coercing them using physical abuse? Not really, but if we were in a lifeboat and the oldest didn't want to bail, I think I would use an entirely different ethic in deciding what constitutes "child abuse". It would be "child abuse" to let adolescent with separation and authority issues override group safety. If physical force was the only way, then so be it. In my house though, in most cases, not following my orders has no really hazardous outcome. I can show there are consequences to certain behaviors but I don't force the point JUST to make the point.

To: Lane3 who wrote (6042)	3/31/2002 3:37:25 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

There are some school programs that I think were effective in teaching young people to think very carefully about early pregnancy. I remember seeing a program on a school that made high school students carry around a bag of flour, which they could not leave alone (they had to find a sitter for it if they wanted to go out). I believe they had to diaper it regularly and feed it, and I think there was a component of the class that taught the children how expensive a baby would be. I believe it was part of a health class. I saw this a long time ago, but it seemed like a very good idea to me. Just telling young adults (who are prone to fantasy) that babies are limiting doesn't work. It seems to me they need to experience some of the limiting and frustrating effects of being around young children. I never understood the strain I would be under caring for a young child twenty four seven, and I thought about being a parent a lot. I realize that if I substantially underestimated the strain, children with poor parenting, and less education, are going to have even less idea of what they are getting into. If there ever was a national interest I think it is making sure that children in our society grow up cared for, and loved by a functional parent or parents. It is, I think, an element of national defense to make sure our children do not grow up abused, or neglected, as those children often grow up to turn on society, instead of becoming part of it.