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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: tekboy who wrote (23034)	4/1/2002 6:23:09 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I partially agree with it. It sums up the current situation, but in an effort to simplify history, glosses over the fact that the Zionists were always so to speak, pragmatic visionaries; they bought their land, they didn't conquer it, most of them hewed to a position of restraint in the face of the Arab Revolt because they wanted to develop a modus vivendi with their Arab neighbors, and they accepted a partition without Jerusalem in 1947, not at all what they had hoped for (particularly as Jerusalem has had a Jewish plurality or majority since the eighteenth century). This is pragmatism, not intransigence. The Arab position, which imo is religious at bottom and thus extremely intransigent, was simpler -- no Jewish State, period. The Palestinians have pursued a course of ruinous maximalism at every opportunity for the last century. People thought that they might have turned a corner at Oslo, but as soon as the PA got its land, they reverted to form. However, I agree it's likely to get worse before it gets better, and in the worst way, slowly and by stages. Israel is held back by the US and given a green light for one day only after each particularly heinous outrage. I thought Hamas would have to kill hundreds of Israelis in one go to make it all-out war, but the symbolism of blowing up a Passover Seder acted as a doubling cube. But, then, it's not all-out war yet as Arafat is still safe. There needs to be a secret diplomatic plan for an Israeli withdrawal followed by a Nato(?)/Jordanian occupation. First, the Israelis must ruthlessly kill all of Arafat's thugs they can get their hands on, and then Arafat himself, before they withdraw. This would be followed by huge public condemnation and equally great private relief.

To: tekboy who wrote (23034)	4/1/2002 7:47:25 PM
From: Win Smith	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

But who is this Gideon Rose guy?

To: tekboy who wrote (23034)	4/2/2002 2:08:42 AM
From: SirRealist	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

TB, fine piece of verbiage; thorough, with an assessment that won't be disproven. The entire last paragraph describes every player succinctly and exactly. Q: do you ever get the urge to write something like "those lunkhead Palestinians have gone goofy again and sociologists are stumped" ? Or is that considered insensitive and biased? As for moi, I am always insensitive and biased against all who take murder lightly, and am aware that both the principal actors have crossed that line before. But right now, it is one side targetting the innocent, the civilian, the elderly, the baby, supporting the murderer who murders him/her-self as well as other Arabs.... and the leaders of the other Arab states do not even decry the deaths of other Arabs! And when they lecture our Vice President and President, telling them what they must do if, it adds insult to injury. Why should our leaders follow the advice of people who defend suicide bombers instead of the value of each life? Why don't the Palestinians use the effective course of civil disobedience and non-violent resistance, which can make steady gains without sacrificing life? Wisdom is all it takes to find effectiveness; murder by suicide is the least effective way. When will a Palestinian statesman emerge with a way that's more effective and less deadly to all concerned? Lotsa questions, and too many Palestinians would rather turn themselves and bystanders into ground beef than provide a single answer. What a waste.