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To: Lane3 who wrote (6403)	4/2/2002 5:29:45 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

It would help if you would give an example that fits the terms of the discussion (i.e., innocuous entanglement)......

To: Lane3 who wrote (6403)	4/2/2002 7:17:04 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

"It's a difficult problem when some people can't be detached about the discussion and others either have to pretend that no harm has been done or risk becoming pariahs. Similar to the argument about the rights of tobacco smokers. This is juxtaposed with infringing on the rights of those who have the right not to be forced into breathing second hand smoke. Is religious expression for you, analogous to breathing second hand smoke. If so, I don't think you have made a strong enough "harmful effects" argument.

To: Lane3 who wrote (6403)	4/2/2002 7:22:05 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

What you said goes for me too

To: Lane3 who wrote (6403)	4/2/2002 8:39:27 PM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

In a way, I see as "innocuous" the expression(s) Neocon mentioned, too. In a way. In that way, I just figure everything everywhere can manifest all of us, what's the problem, and lots of us are religious. I start getting discomfited about it when I think about the likelihood that freethinkers, atheists, agnostics will be afforded equal time. Like, when the Christmas tree is taken down, can we atheists put up some bulletin boards, or design a mix-media Freethinkers Show? Can we have an assembly to present the Atheist Pageant to the children? Neocon allowed for atheists in Commencement ceremonies, and Bush Jr. (if not his father) acknowledges us as citizens and patriots, so it's possible that such an idea isn't as far fetched as it strikes me. We have a Christmas tree (did when my son was a child, at least) and I love a lot of Christmas carols and have gone caroling, even, so I'm not hard line, I suppose. I just want to be treated like everybody else by the state -- no Official Preferences expressed. Of course I'm none too happy about some commercial businesses getting tax exemptions just because their profits go to a religious organization. They're using tax-supported services, and I pay for those and wish they'd pay their share. I wouldn't like to be an entrepreneur in competition with some business that didn't pay taxes, either. Since I really think we won't all be treated equally or near to it, and can't imagine how the logistics would be worked out even if there were a will to do it, I think the way to go is to have the state be separate from the church and everyone have freedom to practice their religion or philosophy unimposed or intruded upon in their lives, at least insofar as the state is a presence in their lives. Confession: The idea that anyone should start reading to the children from the Koran in school, or even have Koran-based clubs, about now, totally freaks me out, at this point in my understanding of the Koran. This was posted on another thread: Message 17271916 I keep reading that Islam is a "peaceful" religion. What is true?