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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: SilentZ who wrote (144085)	4/7/2002 4:49:32 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1577835

Huh? No. Egypt used Gaza (and the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel took and gave back for peace) as a place to station its army and fire from. They also sent in gunmen from there. Jordan and Iraq went in from the West Bank into Israel in '48 and '67. The West Bank is home to the Judaean Hills, a strategic high point from which it is easy to attack the land in Israel below. Yes, I know.....and its my understanding Israel neutralized the threat of these attacks by establishing buffers in the form of the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Hts. Furthermore, the Golan Hts is perfect for attacking Syria. The Palestinians were definitely not the main concern until the first Intifada, which started in 1987, and they weren't really a danger to Israelis until 1993, after the Oslo agreements were signed and suicide bombers began flowing into Israel. Yes, you are right.....I misspoke. Buffers were in place to protect Israel from the other Arabs, not so much the Palestinians. This was because the Palestinians were suddenly given a high degree of autonomy in the West Bank, and instead of developing economically, they built a terrorist enterprise. And why do you think that is? >Why is that? Why can't you so intimidate a people that they finally shout their mouths? You can, Jordan did it with the Palestinians in the late '60s- however, Israel doesn't want to kill thousands of Palestinians, and I don't blame them. That's not intimidation, that's genocide. Of course, if you kill everyone, the problem is solved. But like you said, Israel is not prepared to kill everyone and its my belief that the alternative tact they have chosen to follow will not work. In school, I read somewhere that should always know the nature of your enemy before you attack them. I think the Israelis do not know the nature of their's. But they didn't, that much. They really were just fighting with sticks and stones until the Palestinians started governing and arming themselves. As I said earlier, the other Arab states were of much greater concern to Israel. Again, I agree. >First, although they may like to, the Palestinians are not threatening to take down all of Israel but they can undermine its sense of well being. And in the same way, gangs undermine the well being of this country, particularly for those Americans who live and/or work in our cities. Most of the country's population is afraid to leave home. I don't think that's the case, not yet. If it were the case, there would be no one for the suicide bombers to take out. It's not too far from there that you have people starting to pack up and leave. That happens in inner cities in America, but most of the country isn't like that. Actually, I bet that's happening already. Living under current conditions is extremely stressful, and I am sure many can't handle it. >No such hope exists for many Palestinian youth. And without hope, you have the ultimate terrorist.......the suicide bomber. They aren't really doing this out of despair... they're doing it because they're being taught that they're helping their cause... that's because of the leadership, which has bomb factories, and hand out explosives with the purpose of suicide bombing... note that they're doing it in public right now (as you mention). The leaders also incite them to become martyrs through their speeches. Perhaps the peoples' minds are more malleable because of a lack of hope, but it's the propaganda of the Muslim leadership that ingrains them with the hate that causes them to do this. Along with you, I think many Israelis believe this but I believe that thinking is wrong. I think despair is the ultimate catalyst for the suicide bombers......dispair and a loss of hope. That's what killed many in the WWII camps; not lice, vermin, dysentery, etc. They gave up on the notion of ever living a normal life again. Humans can survive impossible odds, but without hope, they wither away and die very quickly. I think the Palestinians, especially the teenagers whose view of the world is limited by their age, have given up hope that things can ever be better. After all, they have been in their camps for over a generation now. >Where are all these sophisticated weapons that you worry about? Are they stored waiting for the ultimate battle? The Palestinians are certainly not taking advantage of them. Why do you think the Israelis do take some sh*t for their incursions into the West Bank towns? What we see fighting those rag tag insurgents is a well armed, well run modern army? Of course, the Palestinians come off looking like a modern David. I am smart enough to know that there is more to the Palestinian opposition than what we see but I can't sit here and have you tell me that the Palestinians command sophisticated weaponry....and not question what appears to be your bias. Ummm... note how many people died in the two major bombings over Passover in Haifa and Netanya. They were huge! Why? Because the Palestinians are no longer using bombs made from fertilizer, they are using military-grade explosives. Huh? The death toll is 3 to 1 in favor[?] of the Palestinians. Military grade or fertilizer, the Palestinians ability to fight back appears to be limited. Also, there are plenty of mortar factories in the territories, and when the Israeli army went into the Palestinian cities, they found Kassam-2 and Katyusha rockets, both of which are capable of hitting the main cities in Israel proper. They also found two cases of anti-aircraft missiles and 200 anti-tank missiles. Also, many of the Palestinian gunmen are using AK-47s, RPGs, and other military-grade armaments. The IDF soldiers have in fact been surprised during these incursions by the quality of the resistance in these incursions. I am pretty certain that if the weapons you cite above were widespread, the death toll count would be more in equilibrium. I don't think anyone will buy that the Palestinians are as well equipped as the Israeli Army. The Palestinians try to use the media to their advantage. They cry and cry about Israeli massacres, even though I've heard both Chris Matthews and Alan Keyes challenge them to name even one, and they cannot name a single victim, let alone a massacre. Mohammed al-Dura, a Palestinian 12 year old boy, who was shot to death on camera in his father's arms is their most used example. However, Israel had been saying for a long time that they did some investigation and that they found that he was in fact shot by Palestinians and not Israelis. A recent independent European study confirmed this. Many Palestinian civilians are dying because of a new tactic that the PA has been using in this intifada. In the first intifada, the people threw stones at IDF soldiers. In today's intifada, while they throw stones at the soldiers, gunmen hide among them and shoot at the soldiers. The soldiers shoot back, and civilians (stone-throwers) get caught in the crossfire. The leadership arranged this on purpose to win the sympathy of the West. Anyone who's had experience with human manipulation, and that's most of us, sees through most of the emotional pleas. I got what poor, poor Arafat was doing, begging for for the world's intervention by the light of a candle.......clearly it was pitiful and clearly staged. >Now, please explain to me how the latest military incursions by Israelis is doing the trick. Well, there haven't been any suicide attacks against Israeli civilians in the last week. That's a pretty nice accomplishment, considering that before that, there had been an average of more than one a day for five or six days before that. I won't argue with your thinking......but I don't see how you can be so sure there is any correlation whatsoever. In fact, I am pretty sure that these military incursions have accomplished nothing at all. >So, for sure, the new Israelis settlements in the West Bank are really only temporary. Israel has no plan to annex the West Bank. The new settlements were only a temporary solution to a population explosion problem. Right? The first settlements were established as a place to be able to house soldiers away from Israel proper. The new ones are established by the people, and not by the government. Israel offered to close all of those in 2000 at Camp David. Arafat turned it down. And now Sharon refuses to close them. ted Enter symbols or keywords for search: QuotesStock TalkChartsNewsPeople Symbol Lookup Subject Titles Only Full Text Go to Top Terms of Use Got a comment, question or suggestion? Contact Silicon Investor.

To: SilentZ who wrote (144085)	4/8/2002 11:22:41 AM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1577835

Potent Explosives Fortify Palestinian Arsenal By DOUGLAS FRANTZ nytimes.com TEL AVIV, April 6 — The Palestinian militants battling the Israeli Army in the West Bank lack the basic weapons available to the world's guerrilla armies: antitank guns, missiles and land mines that can cripple armored vehicles. But Israeli intelligence officials say they have evidence that the Palestinians have recently augmented their limited arsenal with significantly more powerful, military-grade explosives that appear to have been smuggled into the territories. Israeli officials said a forensic examination of two massive explosive charges used to cripple Israeli tanks in the Gaza Strip in February and March found traces of RDX, an explosive that is much more potent than the rudimentary bombs previously detonated by the Palestinians. Officials said they did not know where the Palestinians obtained the military-grade explosives or how much they had. Security officers said two suicide bombs — one on March 27 in Netanya that killed 26 people, another four days later in Haifa that killed 15 — were also more expertly built than previous devices and appeared to have more powerful explosives. The bombs contained longer and better-packed nails to increase deaths and injuries, a senior officer said. Israeli security authorities attributed the lethality of the attacks in Netanya and Haifa to the improved explosives and training provided by Hezbollah guerrillas, who have vowed to help the Palestinians with weapons and expertise. The Islamic militant group Hamas claimed responsibility for the attacks, and one of its leaders boasted this week that his group had obtained military-grade explosives but declined to provide details. "Those blasts were more powerful and effective than anything we have seen before," said an American official in the region. "The Palestinians have learned some new tricks." Still, the Palestinians are badly overmatched in weapons. The relative paucity of high-powered weapons discovered in the Israeli incursions underscores the contention by Palestinian militants that suicide bombers are their only means of countering one of the world's best-equipped armies, which uses heavily armored tanks and American-supplied warplanes and helicopter gunships to dominate the conflict. The Palestinians' inability to obtain antitank missiles or mines has been evident in recent days as column after column of Israeli tanks and armored personnel carriers rolled into town squares and encircled the headquarters of Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader. An Israeli security cordon around the Palestinian-controlled areas has limited the opportunities for smuggling heavy arms, leaving Palestinian militants to rely on local workshops and laboratories to produce explosives and short-range rockets that have proven largely ineffective against the Israeli military. The explosives are typically less powerful than military versions, and the so-called Qassam rockets made by local machine shops are notoriously inaccurate and have limited range. The information about the weaponry is based on interviews with Israeli officials and is consistent with what witnesses have reported seeing and what the Palestinians themselves have been saying. Israeli officials said troops searching house by house in the West Bank had found a dozen or so rudimentary workshops for building bombs, relatively few heavy machine guns and some rocket-propelled grenades, a common weapon for attacking tanks and armored vehicles. Israeli officials said the Palestinians had smuggled small quantities of high-powered weapons into the country. They said a search of Mr. Arafat's compound uncovered a rocket-propelled grenade launcher and 43 bombs, three Russian-made sniper rifles with telescopic sites and assorted other weapons. Officials said the raids also uncovered evidence that a top Palestinian Authority official apparently controlled access to the rocket-propelled grenades, according to a document discovered in the compound and provided by Israeli authorities to The New York Times. The document was a receipt on the letterhead of Fuad Shobaki, the chief financial officer for military operations of the Palestine Liberation Organization and a member of Mr. Arafat's inner circle. Dated Nov. 18, 2001, it was signed by a Palestinian militia officer to acknowledge that Mr. Shobaki had provided him with 20 RPG-7's, a version of the antitank grenade. Another document that the Israelis said was found in Mr. Shobaki's office outlined an ambitious plan to build a $100,000 workshop to make artillery rockets and mortars for Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, a militant wing of Mr. Arafat's Fatah faction. Israeli intelligence analysts are trying to use serial numbers and seized documents to trace the origins of the grenade launcher and other weapons from Mr. Arafat's compound, officials said. Israeli officials suspect that some small arms and explosives have been smuggled into Israel through a network of tunnels in Rafah, the divided city in the southern Gaza Strip that straddles the border with Egypt, the Israeli authorities said. Israeli intelligence officials said Bedouins in the Sinai desert sent weapons, drugs and other contraband through the tunnels. The Israelis said the Egyptian authorities had tried to limit the smuggling, but they acknowledged that the task was difficult. "It's a wide-open desert," an Israeli security official said. The Israelis have tried to close the tunnels by knocking down houses to create a no man's land in sections of Rafah so that use of the tunnels cannot be hidden in houses. United Nations and Western aid officials have condemned razing houses. Smuggling occurs over the borders with Lebanon and Jordan, but the authorities in Israel and Jordan said the amounts were believed to be small because of heavy patrols. Closer to home, Palestinians have obtained weapons from Israeli criminals. A former Israeli security officer was accused last year of selling Palestinians dozens of assault rifles stolen from an arsenal on a kibbutz. But officials said the sales did not include high-grade explosives or heavy weapons. Sea routes, often a means of obtaining larger weapons, have been blocked fairly effectively. On Jan. 3, the Israelis say, they prevented the Palestinian forces from obtaining 50 tons of weapons when commandos boarded a freighter, the Karine A. Israeli and American intelligence officers said Mr. Shobaki was one of the Palestinian officials who arranged the arms shipment with Iran. The cargo contained weapons that the Palestinians have been unable to obtain — antitank mines and missiles, two tons of TNT and C-4 explosives, hundreds of rocket-propelled grenades and launchers, and Katyusha rockets that can reach most Israeli cities from the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli officials say the Palestinian militants have also turned for help to Hezbollah, the Lebanon-based guerrilla group financed and trained by Iran and Syria. The group's leader recently called on all Arab countries to help arm the Palestinians. American and Israeli intelligence officers said members of two Palestinian militant groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, had been trained at Hezbollah camps in the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon. That training, they said, showed up in two particularly lethal suicide attacks late last month. In the seaside resort of Netanya, a bomb nearly destroyed the dining room of the Park Hotel. Four days later, a similar blast blew the roof off a restaurant in Haifa. Similarly, two huge blasts in Gaza were the first successful attacks on Israeli tanks by Palestinians. "We know they have RDX in Gaza," a senior officer said. "We don't know how it got there."