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To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (7607)	4/8/2002 1:27:31 AM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 21057

The point I might quibble with is *Humans are not born with any intuitive sense of what is moral, but can only learn it through education. If humans have an innate sense of morals, why do churches spend so much time and effort on Sunday school, catechism, schul, and sermons? Why does that intuitive sense handle things without that? I'd say it's clear that morals have to be taught to Christians, Jews, and Muslims too. Along with Hindus, Shintoists, ...... The point is no more true of believers that infidels.

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (7607)	4/8/2002 7:55:04 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

the vacuum needs to be filled with a set of propositions or beliefs countering those held by the religious Vacuum. If you take away religion, what is missing? From religion we get morals, traditions, mythology, institutions, and a world view. Of those, which would leave a vacuum if absent? I don't think the mythology or the religious institution would need to be replaced. Mythology is popular amongst kids so we have fairy tales, the tooth fairy, Babe the Blue Ox and the like. I don't have enough experience with children to have an opinion on how essential they are--they probably serve a creative and entertainment purpose--but I know that they serve no essential purpose with adults and would not necessarily leave a vacuum that needed to be filled. The more essential myths are about creation and the afterlife. To fill the vacuum for the former we have science. To fill the vacuum for the latter, we have the obvious alternative that when you're dead, you're dead. If there is some need for mythology among some, we have things like astrology and ESP that can scratch that particular itch. The religious institution, of course, is the administrative infrastructure for the religion and exists solely to serve the religion so would not be needed without it. Traditions for the major events in our lives can come from religion but they can come from lots of other places. People, after all, get married while jumping from airplanes. Some bury their loved ones, some keep ashes on the mantel, others scatter them. There are lots of sources for traditions. That leaves morals and a world view as necessary replacements. We've all discussed the morals part a lot. Individuals and societies can create moral systems either through religion or separate from it. For a world view, gosh, all sorts of input to that and as many options as there are individuals. Some atheists may adopt a humanistic world view, which, itself, subsumes a lot of variety. Or something else. Some just do their own thing. It seems to me that that's a very personal thing. Half the fun of living is coming up with and refining one's own. Regarding your list, I found three items with which I substantially agreed, FWIW. I'll leave it to your imagination to guess which three. The "vacuum," to the extent that there is one, would be filled differently by different people.