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To: IngotWeTrust who wrote (84391)	4/12/2002 11:16:57 PM
From: long-gone	Respond to of 116789

OT Subject: Amish ready to roll if judgment goes against them Amish ready to roll if judgment goes against them By TOM GIBB Pittsburgh Post-Gazette April 11, 2002 knoxstudio.com EBENSBURG, Pa. - He was quick to admit that he didn't understand the legal turns that made a spate of traffic citations against his fellow Amishmen into a religious rights case. But Sam Yoder barely paused Wednesday when asked what would happen if they lost the case. "Then, as close as I can say, we'd have to go, we'd have to leave here," he said as he walked to his horse and buggy in a borough parking lot. "Here" is Cambria County, where Yoder and members of his strict branch of Amishdom live and where police are citing them for refusing to place on their buggies the reflective orange triangles that state law mandates on slow-moving vehicles. About 80 members of the sect, the Swartzentruber Amish, have moved to Cambria County over the past four years from Ohio, where they were granted an exception to the triangle rule. Lawyers for the Swartzentrubers say in a legal brief that, unlike mainline Amish, the group regards the triangle as a garish violation of the biblical commandment to "place faith in God, not in symbols." "They believe genuinely that God will take care of them ... and if something happens to them, it's the will of God," said Donald B. Kraybill, author and professor of sociology and Anabaptist studies at Messiah College, 10 miles west of Harrisburg. Kraybill offered his assessment under oath yesterday as the Amish accused of 23 of the traffic citations - 18 months' worth - went on trial. Judge Timothy Creany won't render a verdict until Assistant District Attorney Heath Long brings in a transportation expert to testify next month. Lawyers for the Amish from the Greater Pittsburgh chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union and the Pittsburgh firm of Reed Smith Shaw and McClay want Pennsylvania to mimic Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin and Kentucky, where the triangle mandate is viewed as an infringement on religious liberty. Failing that, the lawyers want Pennsylvania to follow Ohio, New York and Iowa, which allow the group to use reflective gray tape, which is almost invisible by day, as an alternative. Experts called by the defense Wednesday said the state rule placed a burden on adhering to a religious tenet and there was a good alternative to the orange-triangle law. The alternative is outlining the rear of the buggy with the gray tape, said Philip Garvey, who studies traffic warning signs for the Pennsylvania Transportation Institute at Penn State University. "My opinion is that the (tape) the Swartzentrubers want to use is an adequate and appropriate replacement," Garvey testified.

To: IngotWeTrust who wrote (84391)	4/12/2002 11:34:03 PM
From: d:oug	Respond to of 116789

Your posts reads as if you think only a military solution, a.k.a. the strongest rule, is the future of the Middle East. Maybe Chatters can list those strongest nations, or if E.C. can go back far enough thousands of years, just a group or collection of similiar folks like the Vikings that ruled until time moved forward to replace them as king of the hill. Or better yet, rather than focus on military or whatever means of physical force be it guns, chemical, biological or a person that uses himself as a bomb delivery system which is called a terrorist by the other side, and by the side using such it is called making do with what we have since we have not the military armament the other side has such that we can deliver the exposive material using a machine. But then lost in this discussion where it is said that non military innocents of women and children become the targets of choice is a denial of history that speaks that every nation or group or whatever organization you may name in the Middle East and every other military conflict on planet Earth over the last thousand years has included the destruction of those "non military innocents of women and children become the targets of choice is a denial of..." for every side, including the United States for which anyone can read about it at their local library using books on the history of the creation of the United States from the point when "white man" arrived from the sea and discovered this land and the Indians that have lived here for a long time and yes even them engaged in battles between themselves using all the methods described above. (or) Removing those factors that will allow one side to hold only the destruction of the other side as the only end result accepted will allow the strongest military power to rule while at the same time keeping the spoils of war to do with as they choose, sounds bad and sucks and and and sure, but its either that or continue on what can only be termed a war in classical sense or in the terrorism ways if the weak side has not the ability to control their location. (or) Lessor of two evils it seems Israel is now doing in that it will place the million(?) of Palestinian people living in where the tanks, soilders and air control have been and still are and still advance into more areas, and reduce the quality of life there by a destruction of water, electricity and plumbing and blocking the influx of money and material to rebuild such that they will look back and decide that it was a less negative state of affairs and the choice will be for 99.9% of Palestinian people to take matters in their own hands and police themselves such that they will not allow any of their people to strike against Israel using methods of force and destruction (a.k.a. called terrorism by Israel) so that they will accept a peaceful existance under the conditions that they will always be ruled under the Israel military and never gain any statehood or total land control where they and not Israel control the borders. Seems that Israel will in the months ahead place that option to the 99.9% of Palestinian people living inside what is land under Israel military cotrol. Those 99.9% of Palestinian people who are not engaged in battle with Israel could very easy under the right conditions agree to accept Israel's current control of the areas now in conflict using the avenue to remove all weapons and materials used for the destruction of people and material and ineffect totally disarm themselves and detain all those of their own people that wish to fight on, and put into place a strick code of law such that no guns or weapons allowed inside the land areas they live. From that point enemies of Israel would only be able to strike using materials and methods seperate from the area where the Palestinian people now live, and yes, as i posted to Zeev on that Si Sacks Z thread, if these 00.1% of Palestinian directly engaged in combat against Israel are jailed or removed, then they will fight on against Israel and the 99.9% of Palestinian they regard as traitors. (or) Military Force Rules always has, always will and if you is on the weaker side then decide accept or fight and if the situation changes such as what may be happening now such that the fight has lessened you standard of living to a degree such that you may decide to stop the fight and accept and try and regain what you just lost and yes, you will first have to remove your fighters especially those who refuse to stop fighting. ak

To: IngotWeTrust who wrote (84391)	4/13/2002 12:03:08 AM
From: long-gone	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116789

All, Heads up needed? Is something about to happen? history lesson. January 1998 - 1 weeks close north of $300 April 1998 - 4 weeks close north of $300 May 1998 - 2 weeks close north of $300 October 1998 - 1 week close north of $300 October 99 - 3 weeks close north of $300 February 2000 - 2 weeks close north of $300 2001 ------- not a single week close +$300 February 2002 - 1 week close north of $300 March 2002 - 1 week close north of $300 and April 2002 - 2 weeks close north of $300 - so far