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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (25334)	4/15/2002 1:00:53 PM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

It's not that they "like" to kill one another, but that they have a history of inter-tribal warfare that extends back hundreds of years, and in other forms, continues today. Hmm, sort of like European religious wars. I get it. Intertribal and all that. I've been reading too much English history of late. But it's definitely continental, too. Hmm.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (25334)	4/15/2002 3:25:19 PM
From: Katelew	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

ModBBC News Online: World: Middle East -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Monday, 15 April, 2002, 12:24 GMT 13:24 UK Gunfire erupts near Bethlehem church The stand-off has been going on for two weeks Israeli troops are reported to have exchanged fire with armed Palestinians holed up in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, as they step up psychological pressure on those inside. Israeli Radio reported that fighting had broken out when Israeli troops took control of a hotel on Manger Square which overlooks the church compound. The military has also been bombarding the area with confusing noises and thick smoke in an apparent attempt to disorientate some 200 people inside. The stand-off around the church has continued for almost two weeks, despite attempts by Israel and church leaders to resolve the situation. Snipers' box Bethlehem's Governor, Mohammed Al Madani, who is inside the church, said one Palestinian had been shot in the leg by Israeli sniper fire, according to the AFP news agency. Israeli military officials said two Israeli soldiers had been slightly wounded. Each side blames the other for starting the fire-fight. An explosion overnight in Bethlehem was due to the controlled destruction of two bomb workshops, the Israelis said. The BBC's Jeremy Bowen reports that smoke and sonic booms have been let off by the Israelis around the church. Loudspeakers broadcast dogs barking, cocks crowing and women screaming, in an attempt to disorientate those inside, he said. A protected box - which Palestinians say contains Israeli snipers - has been lowered from a nearby crane overlooking the church and gunshots have been heard coming from it, our correspondent reports. -----------------------------------------------------------

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (25334)	4/15/2002 5:35:55 PM
From: Bilow	Respond to of 281500

Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "But one more aspect I think should merit some note, is that Arab tribes have seldom engaged in total war. They've never tasted it, IMO. They've never had their cities and infrastructure utterly destroyed, as have Japan and Germany (and France and Britain to a lesser degree). The Arab concept of war is like having a marital spat. They will fight, lose some men, but neither side will wish to fully engage to the point of totally destroying the other side. They just want to dominate them, not wipe them out." I'm not certain this is true. But it certainly is true for modern total war. This is due to their not having enough economic development to really pay for the cost of going at it. -- Carl P.S. God forbid that we experience another total war. I don't think very many people appreciate what it is like.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (25334)	4/15/2002 7:19:08 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

But we're too "understanding" and tolerant of their intolerance, treating them like a resentful step-child throwing a tantrum, figuring eventually they'll get it out of their systems and "settle down". But 9/11 was a wake up call, comparable to our hateful little step-child sneaking into our bedrooms one night and stabbing us in our sleep. Good comments. I'm reminded by a line in Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem, that every regime in the Mideast keeps two sets of moral books: one for the world, to show how blameless you are, the other for your neighbor, to show how ruthless you are. Sharon has always been better at making the second kind of entry. But the world needs to open its eyes to the kind of stuff that passes for normal, both in word and deed, in that part of the world. There's been remarkably little intelligent commentatry on the current incursion in the American press. Most of it falls into silly categories, such as 'violence never works' (somebody give those writers a history book), or 'you can't stop terrorism because all it requires is anger' (anger doesn't manufacture bomb belts or give the orders for their use). Most of the intelligent criticism comes from Ha'aretz, which is muttering, Yipes, Sharon is doing to Bush what he did to Begin in 1982. He got permission for a quick raid and staged a major campaign that it took us 18 years to end. They are also saying, Sharon couldn't have enhanced Arafat's image more if he signed up as his press agent. But aside from well-known pro-Palestinian voices, such as Amira Hass, there is only a muted outrage or sympathy for the civilian suffering. Israel was goaded so thoroughly by the suicide-bombing campaign that even Ha'aretz favored the military strike.