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To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (10199)	4/21/2002 10:41:03 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

Mr Dithers we were talking about your post about how everyone on the "bus" felt the same in some golden moment of history, here in the US. as a student of history I could not help immediately thinking of Ms. Rosa Parks- anyone with a brain would and of course in the "file" with Ms. Parks I can think of MANY more examples of racial and religious divides in this country (blacks and whites, blacks and hispanics, the Irish and everyone- "no Irish need apply", catholics versus everyone, Jews versus everyone, Japanese Americans versus everyone, and on it goes) You have not addressed any of the substantive things I said racial covenants against blacks, Jews and all sorts of other races exclusionary clauses in country clubs and civic organizations red lining- which was only stopped in the Bay Area in the last decade in some places (and I think the Bay Area is fairly progressive) America is a land of freedom when people have freedom they will do all sorts of things with it, and many people in America choose to cherish their freedom by finding someone to hate. Whether you do this, and that is why you react emotionally, rather than logically, I can't possibly know. But I infer that from your posts. It is quite obvious that we've had, and still have, abundant racial hatred in this country. It comes to the surface when we have events like OJ's trial and Rodney King- these are not the "causes" of the turmoil we see surrrounding them, these events are evidence of the underlying deep rifts in our country, which you apparently are oblivious of. Yes, we have "affirmative action" and that actually has fueled hate in this country- especially amongst people who feel themselves dispossessed by it. My country is America, and I love it, in my own rather unemotional way. I see its warts, and the warts of its people. The ability to hate someone freely is actually part and parcel of what I like about America- the ability to do what you want. But then, I don't really expect you to understand that, as I have already said. And if you don't think Mc Carthyism was about hate, you either do not understand, or do not know, about Mc Carthyism. Communism was the "problem", and hate and paranoia and fear were the tools used to "solve" it. Unfortunately, those aren't very precise tools. They still aren't. Of course if you'd asked I would have told you it isn't just America- most people want someone to hate. I believe I mentioned it was part of the human condition- which I don't see as confined to America only. But you probably missed that. I was merely pointing out that in America we have more freedom to explore all kinds of hatred. Which I would have thought was obvious. But perhaps not.

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (10199)	4/21/2002 10:50:44 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21057

"My opinion, which is one man's only and counts for very little, is that, if you do love your country, you have a funny way of showing it. " I have decided it is not worth talking with you anymore. My time is limited, and you are not worthy of any of it. I am confident that your limitations will continue to be best exposed by your own hand.

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (10199)	4/21/2002 11:16:53 AM
From: Poet	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

I hope Laz takes a look at this, JC, because I think it's a really shitty thing to say to someone: My opinion, which is one man's only and counts for very little, is that, if you do love your country, you have a funny way of showing it.

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (10199)	4/21/2002 11:48:44 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

The central theme of your of your post, as I read it, is that America is filled with hatred, and always been been. I disagree strongly with that. What in the world are you and X arguing about? You're looking at the country through rose-colored glasses and associating that with patriotism. She's being pragmatic and pointing out the warts. I don't see much disagreement on what actually occurred, only on how you two frame it. This is worth an argument?