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To: Fred Levine who wrote (688)	4/22/2002 2:26:24 PM
From: michael97123	Respond to of 786

Great post Fred! Actually Lewis has been one of my gurus here all along. It is very hard for civilized folks to understand the ways of Arab leadership just as it was to understand hitler/stalin/mao. This is truly a must win situation for us. As for the settlements, what started as subtle pressure back in the late 60's to get negotiations going so Israel could return the land, has become a stick in the eye so to speak. But keep in mind that the "territories" will be just that until someone "responsible" party arises to take leadership of whats left of Palestine. Otherwise one day the territories will be absorbed into one or more of the countries of the area. Maybe Jordan will realize one day that palestinian terrorism could again become a threat and makes the deal with israel that sends 50% of the territories back to them while Israel annexes the remainder. Maybe both israel and jordan would feel they could control terrorism better that way? Who knows? A palestinian state is not as sure a thing as it seemed even a few weeks ago. mike

To: Fred Levine who wrote (688)	4/22/2002 9:08:16 PM
From: runes	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 786

Fred - 1 <Arafat never gave a counteroffer...> So if Arafat had countered with, again, a demand for the right of return then Barak would be the bad guy? Or Sharon would not have been elected? I don't think so. ...The negotiations had become deadlocked over the right of return. Israel wanted Arafat to give up the right of return in exchange for giving back the illegal settlements land and allowing them to have a state - but not in Jerusalem. ...I wouldn't call that offer generous from a Palestinian perspective given that the UN has recognized the right of return, the right of self determination, and that the settlements are illegal. In Arafat's words "If I sign that my people will kill me!" - and he meant it. 2) All the terrible things that the enemy, the Arabs have done. ...Let's see - Mao's Cultural Revolution killed 30 mil in 4? years, the Russian collectivization killed 5 to 7 mil Ukraines, Hitler killed 6 mil Jews, THe Khmer Rouge killed 3 mil Cambodians, THe US killed a million or so Native Americans via war, massacre, starvation, and biological warfare. ...Looks to me like these "Arab enemy" are lightweights in the genocidal world. ...Oh and speaking of tacit approval - seen any US reaction to the slaughter of some 3 million in the Congo civil war? (That's one WTC every day for the last three years.) 3) The cowardice of the west - ...Don't forget Reagan's trading arms for hostages. And the lackluster response to the CIA and barracks bombing in Beruit. You know - back when Sadam was our buddy because he beat up on Iranians. 4) It sound like you are back justifying the military action in Afghanistan. But I don't see anyone challenging that. Or are you trying to snowball the WTC into a worldwide campaign - I hope not. 5) Sadam must be removed - a valid opinion and a debatable point. 10 years ago I would have loved to see him on a pike for what he did to the Kurds and Kuwaitis. But - for the last 10 years he has been an annoyance only. So I'm not sure I can justify the considerable cost in $s and human life to do an Iraqi intervention. <negotiations worked with "them" without force...> ...Egypt and Israel - land for peace ...Jordan and Israel peace for peace (w/ a piece of Pallestine?) ...The hostages out of Iran. Arms for hostages - Iran Contra ...Saudi support against oil embargo in return for military strength in the region. ...Arab coalition to kick Sadam out of Kuwait. Fred - I'm having problems picking up your main thrust. Are you saying that the region is violent so we have to be violent too? ...I am also more than a little concerned that you seem to want to lump everyone in the region together in a kind of mass condemnation. ...The Middle East is a critical pivot for us because of our oil addiction. And that has caused lots of money and weapons and western culture to flow into that area. And don't forget the British legacy before us. ...Which has made for a pretty volatile cocktail. Which gets me back to the point: that when we muck around in other people's yards, we have got to expect that someone will take exception and retalliate. That doesn't make the retaliation fair or just or right. But a forseeable consequence.