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To: Dayuhan who wrote (10332)	4/22/2002 10:27:05 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 21057

Let's try a realistic set of answers. It is pretty well accepted that the selection of Diem was initiated by the US; I have never seen this questioned in any credible account. Agreed. I didn;t know this was subject to doubt. Would you say, regarding the election, that the US has the right, or the responsibility, to obstruct the electoral process of another country if we don't like the actual or probable winner of an election? Do we retain that right to this day? Right? Define "right". Where does and should "right of self determination" begin and end? At the national boundary? At the county line? Should France and Britain have invaded Germany when Hitler invaded the Rhineland? Hitler probably would have been overthrown and WW2 and the Holocaust and the current ME mess averted. Would this have been bad? To whom does this apply? If Italy or the Netherlands elected a Communist Government, should we go in and install somebody we like? Should we not? If the gov't would be the ordinary sort of Communist gov't we've seen in the past, we'd be doing the people a great favor if we restored democracy. Do you think the Netherlands resents the fact that we threw out their WW2 Nazi gov't? Or does this right of interference extend only to countries inhabited by people who aren't Europeans? Chileans are largely Caucasian. We overthrew their Communist gov't. At one point (in the late '60s or early '70s, as I recall), the US became seriously concerned about the Australian gov't and effectively brought it to an end. One of the concerns was that the new Australian gov't would force the CIA to abandon its listening post at Alice Springs. If another country disapproves of the results of our electoral process, do they have the right to intervene? If they can, want to, and can get away with it. Currently, that's rather unlikely. But you do remember that Britain and France did consider intervention in the American Civil War, right? One of the reasons they dropped it was because, on closer study, it appeared the Union army and navy could be a real problem. They then proposed a negotiated settlement which Lincoln had no interest in.

To: Dayuhan who wrote (10332)	4/23/2002 12:58:28 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

I am not denying it, but there is a big difference between shoving someone down Bao Dai's throat and coming to a consensus on the Prime Minister. I am merely expressing agnosticism about the nuance involved. I think that it is illegitimate to elect a party intent upon destroying democracy once it ascends to power. Circumstances determine whether it is proper to intervene, and at what level. After the War, we did, indeed, provide under- the- counter help to the Christian Democrats, in Italy, to prevent a Communist victory, which I approve of, and we insisted on de- Nazification in Western Germany, including outlawing any version of the Party, and I approve of that too. In the former Soviet bloc, the Communists have acceded to democratic norms, so I think it is okay that they participate. As long as we have reason to believe that the Western Communist parties have given up on the dictatorship of the vanguard party, then we can relax about them. However, if a NATO member were to be subject to a Communist coup, I think we would have a right and obligation to intervene. I would hope that if an anti- democratic party tried to take over in the United States, our allies would help those resisting it.