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To: Rick Julian who wrote (11661)	5/2/2002 2:00:09 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

..."substantiation of my notion" Cool post. There has been so much tit-for-tat back and forth between you and Laz that I am not sure where to look to find the post where you originally presented your idea. Would you mind restating it?

To: Rick Julian who wrote (11661)	5/2/2002 2:07:53 PM
From: TigerPaw	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

While quantum phenomina that are examined appear to have no precise value until the test is made, there are many-many more quanta which move from their uncertain future to their unchangable past without being within range of observation. The universe functioned before there were beings to observe and continues to function even when the local inhabitants are not paying attention. TP

To: Rick Julian who wrote (11661)	5/2/2002 2:18:40 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21057

met·a·phys·ics Pronunciation Key (mt-fzks) n. 1.(used with a sing. verb) Philosophy. The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value. 2.(used with a pl. verb) The theoretical or first principles of a particular discipline: the metaphysics of law. 3.(used with a sing. verb) A priori speculation upon questions that are unanswerable to scientific observation, analysis, or experiment. 4.(used with a sing. verb) Excessively subtle or recondite reasoning. You appear to be within definition 3. You came in trying to apply the laws of mechanics to the ME mess. That is, was, and always will be a crock. I said you are free to engage in wildass speculation. But what you are doing is NOT physics. Politics and international relations are different fields from physics. Whether you like it or not. Also, there is and long have been multiple interpretations of the laws od quantum physics. You cite one side. At the other extreme, Einstein was certain until his death that quantum physics was fundamentally flawed. I'd suggest you look at TigerPaw's response too. Did the Universe not exist before men? Oh, yes, since you are a fan of appeal to authority, are you aware that Feynman (heard of him? QED?) considered philosophers to be worthless bags of hot air?

To: Rick Julian who wrote (11661)	5/2/2002 2:53:45 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

By the way, when I did elementary physics experiments in college, it was always necessary to fudge data to get the correct formulae, and I started to feel that the elements of the experiments had wills of their own, and were playing with me. Anyway, there is some reason to wonder about panpsychism, and whether the ultimately reality is that every thing has consciousness. Quantum phenomena are not merely random, they have the character of sudden decision, as it were......