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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: tejek who wrote (146811)5/3/2002 1:22:21 AM
From: Joe NYC  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 1574356
 
Ted,

what I can't understand is why they are so freaked out. There have been major demonstrations in every major city this past week. If they had just turned out to vote two weeks ago, they might have avoided this mess.

That assumes that the candidate that came in 3rd (Jospin?) would have ended up 2nd. Their turnout was very high, at least based on use standards - in 70s I think. The problem is that the voters voted for so many off the wall candidates, that the 2 mainstream party candidates got only 19 + 16 = 25% combined.

I think every leftie knows they are voting for a conservative.......they figure its the lesser of two evils.

Those are not the ones I am talking about. I am talking about conservatives, who normally would have voted for Chirac, but now that Chirac looks like a hero of the Left, they may have second thought about him.

I want Le Pen to win!!! LOL

I wouldn't go that far, but it sure would be fun to watch.

I know you are not Catholic

How do you know that? <g>

But what I don't understand is how a priest who is supposed to believe there is a heaven and a hell...

...Do you Joe or someone else understand how he was able to deal with this in his head?


Human weakness? The are human after-all. Have you never done something wrong fully knowing what you are doing is wrong?

Also, the concept of celibacy is a bit harsh on a healthy male.

How the Catholic church got started on this is not entirely clear to me. I guess they wanted total dedication... Or does it have it something to do with Jesus Christ? The idea never crossed my mind until now, but as far as I know, he was never married, and I don't know what to think of stories / rumors about his involvement with Maria Magdalene.

Joe



To: tejek who wrote (146811)5/3/2002 5:33:40 AM
From: Joe NYC  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 1574356
 
In 'Hidden Vote' for Le Pen, French Bared Unease
By ALAN COWELL

CHIRMECK, France, May 1 — This town in the forest is a place of dark secrets — some new, some old and some underscoring the paradoxes that swirl around the strength here of Jean-Marie Le Pen, the extreme right-wing insurgent who will challenge President Jacques Chirac in a runoff vote for the presidency of France on Sunday.

Almost a third of Schirmeck's residents voted for Mr. Le Pen in the first round of voting on April 21. Across this prosperous region, Alsace, Mr. Le Pen's share of the vote came to 23.44 percent, compared with Mr. Chirac's 18.36 percent, and was bolstered by a further 4.34 percent for another far-right candidate, Bruno Mégret. In some villages, the Le Pen vote alone reached 30 percent.

Yet this Le Pen triumph occurred in a region that is almost a model of the benefits of the European integration he opposes so virulently. At around 5 percent, unemployment in Alsace, along the border with Germany, is just over half the national average of 9 percent — the lowest in France.

Up to 60,000 people commute each day to jobs in Germany and Switzerland across borders once molded by armies and now ignored by economies. New factories and industrial parks fringe towns and villages.

"We are the crossroads of Europe and people have benefited from that," said Frédéric Bierry, the politically independent mayor of Schirmeck.

But, in his view, people here have more somber worries, their expectations of the future colored by the past, from Nazi occupation in World War II to economic depressions in the 1970's and 80's. Even the lowering pine forests all around them, he said, "darken the spirit."

"They are pessimists," he said. "They have the impression that — as we say — they are the fifth wheel on the cart, that people don't take their interests to heart."

This view — that there is something deep in the French spirit that has helped fuel Mr. Le Pen's rise — seems to reinforce suggestions that the rightist politician's influence in an arc of France stretching from the Mediterranean, through eastern France and onto the rust belt of the northeast, may be more nuanced and less easily predicted than was thought.

Usually, the Le Pen vote is ascribed to the influence of high unemployment or high concentrations of immigrants. But here it does not seem to work that way.

"It's crazy," said Franck Schwab, a 40-year-old French history teacher escorting scores of students around Struthof, a camp that its custodians call the only Nazi concentration camp on French soil. "There's no insecurity, no unemployment, no immigrants, and yet they voted for Mr. Le Pen."

In the first-round vote, Mr. Le Pen maintained a strong showing in big eastern cities with large immigrant populations like Strasbourg and Mulhouse that have long been a stronghold. But he did even better in small, prosperous and virtually immigrant-free rural places like Schirmeck, where logging trucks trundle by the lace curtains of modest, comfortable homes.

High above the town, in the pine-clad folds and ridges of the Vosges mountains, a watchtower and wooden barbed-wire gates testify to the World War II past and an era when this region was annexed to Germany and Frenchmen were obliged to bear arms for the German Army.

"This was something that people never discussed with their children or grandchildren," said Mr. Bierry. "This was always a secret."

The camp known as Struthof or Natzweiler also provided the human raw material for a notorious Nazi doctor, Josef Hirt, to pursue hidden research on the bodies of gassed Jews and Gypsies to support his view that they came from a lower order of humanity.

Mr. Le Pen has dismissed places like Natzweiler and people like Dr. Hirt as mere details of history. Despite that huge burden of memory in the hills above them, almost one-third of the people of Schirmeck voted for him — albeit as furtively as Dr. Hirt conducted his research.

"This was a hidden vote, hidden in people's hearts," Mr. Bierry said. "I don't know anyone who will admit to supporting Le Pen. No one will say they have his party card. But when they vote they emerge."

In the village of Rothau, close to Schirmeck, the Steinheil textile mill looms over the town like a throwback to earlier times. In the mid-1970's, said Marc Gallimard, a staunchly left-wing labor union organizer and supervisor there, some 750 people worked at the plant. Now the figure is 72 — two of them immigrants — and may soon be zero: if new investors do not take over the plant by June 11, he said, it will close.

This sort of things causes anxiety, although new economic sectors have emerged in the region. But something deeper is working in Mr. Le Pen's favor, said Christian Claulin, 48, a textile worker. The Alsatian people "like order, even in our work."

Order is something Mr. Le Pen promises people in large doses, but he also seems to be able to conjure fears of disorder among people who have nothing to fear, linking violence directly to North African immigrants who live in big cities, not in small towns like this one.

That feeling of vulnerability was reinforced across France shortly before the April 21 first-round election when the news media devoted much time to the image of a 72-year-old man, Paul Voise, who had been beaten up in a deeply shocking way.

No matter that his assailants, who left him for dead in Orléans south of Paris, were never identified as anything beyond "hooligans." It is the sense that they may be on the brink of an incursion of disorder that they have not yet experienced — an amorphous anticipation of chaos threatening their comfort and prosperity — that stalks the secret Le Pen voters of rural Alsace.

Didier Hisler, a 41-year-old left-wing textile worker, said that in his village of 280 people near Schirmeck one-third of voters supported Mr. Le Pen, even though there was no unrest, no violence, no crime. "And we only have two immigrants — and one of them is a Portuguese who's been there for 30 years," Mr. Hisler said.

Alain Sébille, an official of Mr. Le Pen's National Front in a troubled automotive center at Audincourt, 100 miles south of here, said: "Even people who do not know insecurity are frightened. And that's why a lot of people voted National Front."

Audincourt lives from the Peugeot auto plants of eastern France just as this town used to live from textiles. But the auto industry is precarious and textiles have all but disappeared because of foreign imports.

"Jobs are very precarious," said Martial Bourquin, the Socialist mayor of Audincourt. "There's a sense of social exasperation. There's a desire to punish the government and the classic political parties by voting Le Pen."

There are more tangled layers. In his own town of 15,500, he said, at least half the population is descended from Polish and Italians immigrants drawn to the auto plants in the 1930's. Some of those same descendants of immigrants now vote for Mr. Le Pen and, thus, against the 15 to 20 percent of the population made up of newer Muslim immigrants from North Africa, Mr. Bourquin said.

"In the 1930's," he said, "it was, let us say, Catholic immigration." Now, he added, clearly referring to the arrival of Muslim immigrants, a question of religion has arisen. "What happened in New York, in Afghanistan, in the Middle East has deepened the religious divide," he said.

"What we are seeing," Mr. Bourquin said, "is what I call a crisis of horizons. There are people who think they have been forgotten by the system and they vote for the extremes when they see the government has no solution for them."
nytimes.com



To: tejek who wrote (146811)5/3/2002 7:15:43 AM
From: TGPTNDR  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1574356
 
Ted, Re: <Someone did say they thought he might have entered the priesthood specifically so that he would have access to children.>

I wouldn't have said 'children'. I'd have said 'boys'.

Had it been girls these priests were messing around with they'd have been in jail.

And, as far as why the Catholic Church(and Boy Scouts), I'd put it down to the Willie Sutton factor.

tgptndr



To: tejek who wrote (146811)5/3/2002 12:56:02 PM
From: Tenchusatsu  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1574356
 
Ted, <I was watching some commentary tonite on the priest who got arrested today. He's the one that promoted boy/man love while he was in the priesthood. Obviously, that's sick and what makes it sicker is that he is a man of the cloth.>

I was wondering that, too. How in on God's earth can this guy advocate pedophilia? I would have that was just a misunderstanding, but not after he got arrested. Who allowed him to become a priest, anyway? I'm not Catholic, so I don't know exactly how it works in the Catholic church. But I do know if my pastor advocated such a perverted idea, I'd either leave his congregation or get him kicked out.

<But what I don't understand is how a priest who is supposed to believe there is a heaven and a hell...... after all they shouldn't be agostic.........could commit such a crime.........I mean why was he not worried that he might go to hell for his perversity.>

Evil has a way of twisting words and distorting rational thinking. The tendency to sin exists in every single human, as you know, and not even a man of the cloth is immune.

What went through his head when he committed his crimes? Maybe he thought sex with boys wasn't really sex, kind of like some people (not just Bill Clinton <G>) thinks oral sex isn't really sex. Maybe he thought his pent up sexual energy should have been released the biological way instead of conquered the spiritual way. Or maybe he looked upon the boys not as boys, but as the Forbidden Fruit, sick as it may sound.

It is very sad to see this happening within the Catholic Church, especially at a time when Western society (so closely associated with Christianity, including Catholicism) is increasingly being seen as the Great Satan.

Tenchusatsu