To: Ish who wrote (87639 ) 5/19/2002 8:04:57 PM From: marcos Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807 Quite a few of them were genuinely used as tractors, it was a ruse of course, but they were highly useful in soils in which the wheels of the day did not get sufficient traction ... somewhere there is on the net a diagram of one of the earliest tracked vehicles, preceding the 'tank' by over ten years, i thought it was in german but google can't find it with +traktoren +raupenkette ... Krupp steel had been used in the first designs, from which the Holt company, a predecessor of Caterpillar, improved with their first crawlers .... early engines were extremely heavy for their power output, and would tend to sink ..... the russian tanks had more track surface per tonne, so less p.s.i. ground pressure, so could leave the main roads on the eastern front even when the land wasn't frozen, while the panzers were confined to high dry ground ... one of several reasons why Ferdinand Porsche [yes the same] and company designed the Tiger [edit] - for at least ten-fifteen years Caterpillar has made a crawler farm tractor called the Challenger i think, rubber tracks with steel lining like tyres, no pins no bushings so no great wear problem in sandy soils ... they don't give them away either, hundreds of thousands in loonies The Manchester book was good, wasn't it ... the whole story, right down to der Grosse Krupp getting first noticed, and first financed, after Queen Victoria looked in on his booth and smiled at the first World's Fair, 1851 ... more for his 2-tonne steel ingot than for his cannon, no one had ever before made a piece of cast steel that large and of that quality No idea how i ended up on this thread ... oh yeah, it's on hot subjects ... hasn't been active for years