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Politics : America Under Siege: The End of Innocence -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Investor Clouseau who wrote (15900)5/29/2002 4:22:33 AM
From: haqihana  Respond to of 27666
 
IC, In response to the Muslim view of the Palestinians being persecuted by Israel, I cannot agree with their argument. In the decision of 1948, (I forget the exact name), the land that was called Palestine at that time was given to the Jews with the idea that they were getting their original home land back. When the Jews were dispersed in around 75 AD, the Muslims took advantage of the void and moved onto the land. During the centuries that they appeared to have control of the land, they let it degrade into worthless desert, while they say around with their goats, and their camels. When the Jews started coming back to the area after WW2, they took that worthless desert, and turned it into productive farms to feed their people. Since they have proven to be better stewards of the land, that IMO was given to them by God in the time of Moses, they deserve to keep the land.

Another point is, that as soon as the new nation of Israel was formed in 48, the Muslims made no effort to negotiate, with the Israelis, for a place on the land, but instead, they immediately began to attack the Israeli's in an attempt to remove them from the land by force of arms. Since Israel was able to defend themselves, and repel Muslim military attacks, that is another reason that I feel they deserve to keep all of the land they were given, or have a taken in repelling the attacks.

The white Europeans came to the shores of, what is now, America, and took the land by force from the aboriginal people we call Indians, and you don't see any bleeding heart white liberals willing to give any land back to them.



To: Investor Clouseau who wrote (15900)5/29/2002 8:15:38 AM
From: epsteinbd  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 27666
 
Invrestir Clouseau : you keep telling us how tolerant the muslim religion is to other religions etc...

Why are the Christians praying places on the Saudian continent, underground in the embassies ? Can you show me the link to a picture of a church there ? Any church ?
Please note that I do not ask you for the picture of a Jewish temple : for I don't want the UN to tell me that Allah started to cough blood.

Why is the main Church of Nicosia, Chyprus turned into a mosque with the most holly place of it turned into a broom closet?

What happens to an Arab that wants to convert, in Saudia let's say, or Iran, or Lybia ?

What happens to a good Arab that light a cigarette in the streets during Ramadan in Casablanca, or Karachi ? And in Mecca, what would they cut : his lungs, his fingers, his head ?

Sure the muslim religion could become tolerant of other religions. But only if there will be none left. And that does not mean that it will be tolerant to women, does it?

Now that does not mean that you are not tolerant. May be too tolerant, too tolerant to Islam that is...



To: Investor Clouseau who wrote (15900)5/29/2002 2:39:48 PM
From: Richnorth  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 27666
 
Clash of civilisations? Bunkum

FOR Americans and non-Americans alike still struggling to discover meaning from the ashes of Sept 11, the temptation has been to point the finger at an identifiable - Muslims - even when to blame an entire community is manifestly illogical.

Human nature prefers certainty to doubt, and will manufacture its own certainty to fill the chasm of unknowing that yawns within.

It was refreshing, therefore, when the respected Malaysian academic, Professor Syed Hussein Alatas, at 74 a Fidel Castro look-alike, made it clear last weekend that he thought such thinking was bunk - and that there was no clash of civilisations, only a clash of 'two moral types'.

'It's the ultimate prejudice to think that Islam is inherently violent,' he declared.

'Islam has always been wary of terrorists,' he said, noting that Caliph Ali, Prophet Muhammad's son-in-law, became the first victim of terrorism within the religion, in AD 661, when he was assassinated.

Despite efforts by the Western media to portray it as such, history was not a clash between Islam and the West, any more than it had been a clash between communism and capitalism, or East and West, he said.

'History is a conflict of two moral types - the predatory and the constructive - and these can be found in all societies, all civilisations,' he said.

There was no need for Muslims to fear or fulminate against all things Western, only those elements that were predatory, said the Java-born professor, who was in Singapore at the invitation of the Ba'alwi Mosque, a small, influential mosque in Lewis Road attended by many in the diplomatic community.

The West has its good points, he said, such as its consciousness of human rights, and empathy towards other parts of the world.

Anti-Muslim attitudes were also confined only to small groups, but these, alas, tended to be magnified by the power of the media.

He highlighted two names as contributing to the misunderstanding of Islam - Harvard University don Samuel Huntington, and Japanese-American writer Francis Fukuyama.

An article by the former in the January 2002 special edition of Newsweek magazine, entitled 'The age Of Muslim Wars', was a 'very subtle attempt to create misunderstanding', he said.

That article, published in conjunction with this year's meeting of the prestigious World Economic Forum in New York, focused on the period from the Iranian Revolution in 1979 to the present as an age when Muslims fought Muslims and many others.

It conceded that 'the causes of contemporary Muslim wars lie in politics, not seventh-century religious doctrines', but not before creating the impression that the Muslim persona was central, not incidental, to the protagonists in the conflicts. 'And they make up only one fifth of the world's population,' the American don wrote.

Prof Alatas' counter: 'I would suggest that the most violent civilisation today is Western civilisation. It caused the most conflict in the 20th century - Nazi persecution of the Jews, heartless totalitarian regimes, the Cold War...'

The other writer, Mr Francis Fukuyama, wrote in The Guardian last October: 'Islam, by contrast, is the only cultural system that seems regularly to produce people like Osama bin Laden or the Taleban who reject modernity lock, stock and barrel.'

He made that assertion in response to those who said his theory of 'the end of history' had been disproved by the events of Sept 11.

Standing by his claim, he said: 'We remain at the end of history because there is only one system that will continue to dominate world politics, that of the liberal-democratic West. This does not imply a world free from conflict, nor the disappearance of culture.

'But the struggle we face is not the clash of several distinct and equal cultures fighting among one another like the great powers of 19th-century Europe. The clash consists of a series of rearguard actions from societies whose traditional existence is indeed threatened by modernisation... But time is on the side of modernity, and I see no lack of US will to prevail.'

Prof Alatas' rebuttal was short and cut to the chase: 'The Taleban was created by the US, as a means of resisting Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.'

Many radical organisations, which the Western media now portrays as Muslim-oriented, are in fact non-Muslim in genesis, he pointed out, such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine which is led by Mr George Habash, a non-Muslim.

So why was there this tendency to identify the entire Muslim world as a threat?

Prof Alatas offered a tentative suggestion: Many of the conflicts that the West had were with countries that happened to have Muslim majorities, such as Iran and Iraq. The West had been 'occupied' only once - and that was by Muslims under the Ottoman Empire in several parts of Europe.

Western fear of things Muslim, stemmed, in short, from a restricted view of history and a tendency to extrapolate based on prejudice.

There is also Muslim misunderstanding of the West, he acknowledged, but because Muslims do not form a world power, that misunderstanding is limited in its spread.

His prescription: for the constructive types to work together across all communities to counter the annihilative impact of the predatory types.

What was his vision on 'The future of the Muslim world', the topic of his talk last Saturday? 'My eyesight is very short,' said the unassuming don.

Now that's a man with no need for false certainties.

straitstimes.asia1.com.sg