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To: Dayuhan who wrote (14159)6/5/2002 12:10:06 AM
From: E  Respond to of 21057
 
Gorgeous post.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (14159)6/5/2002 2:25:43 AM
From: Lazarus_Long  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 21057
 
A system was put in place to prevent corrupt governments from guaranteeing loans in quantities that could not be paid. That system was circumvented by our government, to serve purposes that our security bureaucrats deemed vital. As a consequence of this decision, a number of corrupt, unelected dictators and their associates were permitted to borrow and steal large sums of money.

Our government made a conscious decision to permit the overborrowing, and needs to share in the accountability for the consequences.

The banks made conscious decisions to lend the money, knowing full well that it was being stolen and that the governments were issuing more guarantees than they could cover, and they need to share in the accountability for the consequences.

Got references?

That seems... a bit unfair, to say the least.
BFD, Steven. I got stuck with bills on a daily basis I really have no say over. They're called taxes. This is a non-argument out here in the real world. Maybe in some ideal world that means something, but not here.

I think the banks behaved irresponsibly and should take a solid hit. The bank executives that made the decisions leading to the risks being assumed should be held accountable by their shareholders.
More idealism, I'd say. When was the last time you saw a bank president go to jail? Even in the S&L scandal of the '80s, almost all escaped.

think the US Government needs to admit their own unsavory role in the whole affair, and assume some portion of the responsibility. The elected and unelected managers that made the decisions need to be held accountable.
I think I want proof of your statements. And again, governements and bureaucrats taking the hit you want is rather rare. What's Plan B?

I think that a great deal more needs to be done to hunt down and reclaim the assets of the dictators and their associates, which could pay off substantial portions of the debt.
Who? And where are they? Can we get them?
Idi Amin is probably one. He's in Saudi. If they refuse to turn him and his assets over (which they will), shall we declare war?

And I do think that the 3rd world governments should continue to pay a substantial part of the debt: not all the money was stolen, a large amount was legitimately borrowed and should be repaid.
Yes. I was looking for an opportunity to say that I rather seriously doubted that all the money had been stolen.

I also think that, as Tim pointed out, it is pretty stupid to demand that 3rd world taxpayers pay off the entire debt, and at the same time systematically block them from exporting, which is the only way they can earn the hard currency they need to pay it.
Point taken. It seems that Congress passed and Bush signed a rather large farm subsidy bill- -while the US is complaining to other nations about their farm subsidies. While this may get votes in agricultural states, it seems to be rather bad economic and political policy. And a total violation of libertarian principles. The US consumer gets screwed twice: first by not getting the lower prices imports could provide, and then by paying the tax bill to support the subsidies.

I know you see lots of poor people where you are. But our wealth and prosperity didn't make them poor. We didn't steal it from them. We worked for and built the wealth we have. We've been at it for close to 400 years now.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (14159)6/5/2002 11:35:49 AM
From: The Philosopher  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 21057
 
When do we hold the citizens of countries accountable for the acts of their leaders? Your position seems to be that if the leaders are corrupt, but the people don't overthrow them, it's our fault.

IMO, that denigrates the obligations of a people to correct the abuses in their own countries. If we allow them "off the hook," that re-emphasizes that the people of these nations aren't responsible for what they allowed their governments to do, but we are.

That promotes and subsidizes the failure of citizens to take on the most basic obligations of citizenship.