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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: slacker711 who wrote (31598)6/5/2002 6:50:44 PM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
I don't know, slacker. It seems that the general course of events was preordained regardless of whether Sharon went to the Temple Mount.

We can debate endlessly about whether he should have gone, but I'm not sure it would have made much difference, at the end of the day. In support of this notion, let me suggest the utter lack of present mention of Sharon's visit as a catalyst for the present situation.

And, even if it was in fact wrong, does Sharon's visit justify suicide bombings?



To: slacker711 who wrote (31598)6/5/2002 7:33:25 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Respond to of 281500
 
He must have had a clear idea that his going would inspire rioting....and if (as you say) Arafat was looking for an excuse for a second intifada, Sharon should never have allowed himself to be used as the trigger.

Well, I would say that interest and principle mixed in this regard. Sharon felt that Barak was essentially ceding Israeli control over what is, after all, the central site of Judaism, a site that Israel still has legal sovreignty over, and that such weakness and retreat would only embolden Arafat. Barak really let the Waqf get away with murder. They have been digging out caverns all through the Mount without any archaeological consultation (its archaeological importance is of course vast, but it's never been excavated), and just dumping the dirt. Sharon feels, as do all the Israeli opponents of Oslo, that Oslo only guaranteed a war anyhow, since Arafat was not interested in peace, and war was clearly on the way. If you feel like that, the question of who supplied a pretext becomes a minor issue, though still important for PR purposes.

perhaps Netanyahu would now be PM. Sharon was never a fan of the peace process

As opposed to Bibi? Have you heard Bibi's speeches lately? He's running well to the right of Sharon!

Sharon was never a fan of the peace process....he managed to derail any chance for it AND become PM by his trip

The 'peace process' was already moribund. Arafat was not interested in negotiating, by the end of Camp David everyone saw this. Even when you read the American apologists for Arafat, like Malley or Deborah Sontag, they still admit that at Camp David the Israelis moved from offering 40% of the Palestinian demands to offering 80%, and Arafat didn't make one concesssion in return; instead he demanded more. The apologists try to say that the timing was bad, or Barak was a cold fish, or Arafat would have trusted only Peres, or some such excuse. No deal ever gets done if one side is waiting for the perfect offer.



To: slacker711 who wrote (31598)6/5/2002 8:37:47 PM
From: Win Smith  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
There was this exchange from NYRB.

First, the Barak line, blandly asserted as fact by the dominant faction around here:

Barak dismisses the charges leveled by the Camp David "revisionists" as Palestinian propaganda. The visit to the Temple Mount by then Likud leader Ariel Sharon in September 2000 was not what caused the intifada, he says.

"Sharon's visit, which was coordinated with [Palestinian Authority West Bank security chief] Jibril Rajoub, was directed against me, not the Palestinians, to show that the Likud cared more about Jerusalem than I did. We know, from hard intelligence, that Arafat [after Camp David] intended to unleash a violent confrontation, terrorism. [Sharon's visit and the riots that followed] fell into his hands like an excellent excuse, a pretext."

As agreed, Sharon had made no statement and had refrained from entering the Islamic shrines in the compound in the course of the visit. But rioting broke out nonetheless. The intifada, says Barak, "was preplanned, pre-prepared. I don't mean that Arafat knew that on a certain day in September [it would be unleashed].... It wasn't accurate, like computer engineering. But it was definitely on the level of planning, of a grand plan."
(from nybooks.com , Camp David and After: An Exchange (1. An Interview with Ehud Barak)

In response to that, the authors of the original article being discussed (Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors , nybooks.com have this to say:

Barak entirely rejects the notion that Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif on September 28, 2000, played any part in setting off the subsequent clashes. To support his case, he asserts that the visit was coordinated with Palestinian security officials. But that is hardly the point. The point is that when we consider the context in which the visit was taking place—the intense focus on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif at Camp David and the general climate among Palestinians—its impact was predictable. As Dennis Ross, Clinton's special Middle East envoy, said: "I can think of a lot of bad ideas, but I can't think of a worse one."

The Mitchell report says:

On the following day, in the same place, a large number of unarmed Palestinian demonstrators and a large Israeli police contingent confronted each other. According to the US Department of State, "Palestinians held large demonstrations and threw stones in the vicinity of the Western Wall. Police used rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition to disperse the demonstrators, killing 4 persons and injuring about 200." According to the Government of Israel, 14 Israeli policemen were injured.

From then on, the numbers of Palestinian deaths rose swiftly: twelve on September 30, twelve again on October 1, seventeen on October 2 (including seven Israeli Arabs), four on October 3, and twelve (including one Israeli Arab) on October 4. By the end of the first week, over sixty Palestinians had been killed (including nine Israeli Arabs). During that same time period, five Israelis were killed by Palestinians.

According to the Mitchell report, for the first three months of the intifada, "most incidents did not involve Palestinian use of firearms and explosives." The report quotes the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem as finding that "73 percent of the incidents [from September 29 to December 2, 2000] did not include Palestinian gunfire. Despite this, it was in these incidents that most of the Palestinians [were] killed and wounded." Numerous other organizations, including the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Human Rights Watch, and Physicians for Human Rights, criticized the excessive use of force by the Israel Defense Forces, often against unarmed Palestinians.

Barak suggests that Arafat had planned as his response to the Camp David summit a campaign of violent terror. That is a curious assertion in view of the fact that the Palestinians had argued that the parties were not ready for a summit and that Camp David should be understood as merely the first of a series of meetings. In contrast, as he knows well, Barak conceived of Camp David as a make-it-or-break-it summit. Defining the summit as a test of Arafat's true intentions, he early made clear that he foresaw only two possible outcomes: a full-scale agreement on the "framework" of a settlement, or a full-scale confrontation.

Some things appear beyond dispute. The mood on the Palestinian street had reached the boiling point, as the May 2000 violence had shown and as both American and Israeli official reports had confirmed. Sharon's visit on the Haram was both a pretext and a provocation, a case of the wrong person being at the wrong place at the wrong time. A large number of Palestinians had lost patience with the peace process and felt humiliated by their experience with the settlements and at checkpoints; and many were impressed by the success of Hezbollah in Lebanon, where Israel was believed to have decided to withdraw in the face of armed resistance.

At a tactical level, the Palestinians may have seen some advantage to a short-lived confrontation to show the Israelis they could not be taken for granted. The Israeli security forces, for their part, were still affected by the bloody experiences of September 1996 and of May 2000, during which Palestinian policemen confronted Israelis. They were determined to stop any uprising at the outset, using far greater force to subdue the enemy. Hence the Israeli decision to use lethal weapons, and hence the very heavy (and almost entirely Palestinian) toll of death and grave injury in the early days of the intifada. That, in turn, made it, if not impossible, at least very difficult for the Palestinian leadership to bring things under control; rather, it increased pressure to respond in kind. Some among the Palestinian leaders may have hoped that the uprising would last a few days. The Israelis expected their strong reaction to stop it in its tracks. Instead, in this tragic game, in which both sides were reading from different scripts, the combination of the two may have led to an outcome that neither ever intended.

Again, it is worth recalling the Mitchell report:

The Sharon visit did not cause the "Al-Aqsa Intifada." But it was poorly timed and the provocative effect should have been foreseen; indeed it was foreseen by those who urged that the visit be prohibited. More significant were the events that followed: the decision of the Israeli police on September 29 to use lethal means against the Palestinian demonstrators; and the subsequent failure...of either party to exercise restraint.

The report concluded: "We have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity."
( from Camp David and After: An Exchange (2. A Reply to Ehud Barak) , nybooks.com )

Well, by force of # of posts, the first view is always going to win any discussion over the second view around here. But bland assertion does not truth make, no matter how often the bland assertion is repeated. I sure don't know, but I do know better than to argue it here.