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To: Earlie who wrote (172843)6/14/2002 2:51:09 PM
From: Box-By-The-Riviera™  Respond to of 436258
 
great post!!!!



To: Earlie who wrote (172843)6/14/2002 3:10:51 PM
From: Dr. Jeff  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 436258
 
Excellent and important post! Thanks.....

Edit: This is my # 1000 post on SI. Whoopie... -bg-



To: Earlie who wrote (172843)6/14/2002 3:23:03 PM
From: reaper  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 436258
 
Earlie -- a most fabulous post. The best time to short is when the business is "terminal". Oh have I enjoyed the recent terminations of MM, CNC, SITE and ENE (with many more to come I am sure <g>). Enron for example was no where near "too low a price" when the stock was $10.

<<A good short is (or should be) interested in what his PERCENTAGE gain might be, over what length of time. The guy who shorts at $50. and clears at $25. has exactly the same percentage gain as the guy who shorts at $10 and clears at $5. >>

I'm going to modestly dis-agree with this statement, as people mis-understand the percentage gain you can make on a short. The BEST short is a terminal business where you're in early and then pile on on the way down. Take Metris for example. Say I short 1000 shares at $40 back in 2000; total capital invested is $40k. Stock drops in half to $20. But the fact that the stock is going to zero is not changed by the fact that the stock has been cut in half. But I now only have $20k capital committed (1000 shares @ $20). So to get back up to $40k capital committed I short another 1000 shares. Then the stock goes to $10. Back down to $20k of committed capital, but the stock is still going to zero. short 2000 more shares. Finally the stock goes to $5 (sufficiently close to zero) and one clears out. Total profit on $40k capital committed is $60k, or 150%.

Cheers



To: Earlie who wrote (172843)6/14/2002 11:55:51 PM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 436258
 
Early your explanation makes a lot of sense and it is true under the conditions you describe. I think that it may be very relevant to a acquisitive company like Tyco or any other company loaded with debt which can be serviced in prosperous times.

The risk you are running IMHO is that WS likes to bust stocks who are heavy shorted by spreading false rumors and "almost done deal for new financing or IPO of subsidiary". (happen to LU, HWP, T etc)

As a result of those manipulation a $10 to $15 stock can move easy up $3 to $5 or 20% to 30% which can be quite distressing, and preservation of capital rule dictates to cover and cut short your losses, and there I see the issue of risk/reward ration as in most cases those type of situations are difficult to hedge by options.

Other classic examples abounded in the tech sector last year.



To: Earlie who wrote (172843)6/15/2002 4:09:29 PM
From: mishedlo  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 436258
 
Earlie can you or someone take this post apart for me please.
I have a post from someone that Employee Options they do not
affect earnings at all, in fact I believe his conclusion
is that Buffet is mistaken and they are a good idea.

Thanks, appreciate it if you have the time.
There certainly has been alot of talk these days about getting rid of them.

Personally I think it would be devastating to earnings but
not sure how best to prove it. At any rate here is the post.

==========================================================
Option math

NoOptions Options
Revenues 5,000 5,000
Cost 2,500 2,000
Gross profit 2,500 3,000
Expenses 2,500 2,000
Operating profit 0 1,000
Taxes 0 300
Net Income 0 700
Shares outstanding 2,000 2,000
EpS 0.00 0.35
Options 1,000
Cash from options 1,000
Total shares 2,000 3,000
EpS after options 0.00 0.23

Share value (P/E=15) 0.00 5.25
Diluted share value 0.00 3.45

The NoOption Co. had to pay higher salaries to the
founders, $500 more to the CTO and $500 more to the CEO.
In consequence the company showed zero operating income,
zero taxes and zero net profit.

The options company saved $1,000 on salaries and agreed to
give options to the CTO and the CEO, 1,000 shares in total
at a strike price of $1.00. Since the company saved on
salaries it made $1,000 in operating income which caused
$300 in income taxes leaving a net profit of $700.

Since the company's shares typically sell at 15 times
earnings and since the diluted earnings were only 23¢
instead of the 35¢ without the options, the market values
the company's shares at $3.45. The CTO and the CEO
promptly sold their shares and netted $2,450 after paying
the strike price of the options, All in all, the CTO and
the CEO of the Options company made more money than their
colleagues at the NoOption Co.

NoOptions Options
Salary 1,000 500
Options (net) 0 2,450
Gross income 1,000 2,950
Taxes (20%) 200 590
Net 800 2,360

Almost three times as much!

So how did the shareholders fare? If the shares are valued
at 15 times earnings, the shares of the NoOptions Co. are
worth zero, zip, zilch! But at 15 times earnings, even
with dilution, the shares of Options Co. are worth 3.45.

Oh, I almost forgot the cash position, maybe it's here that
NoOptions Co. does better.

NoOptions Options
Initial cash 2,000 2,000
Less:
Salaries 1,000 0
Taxes 0 300
Sub Total 1,000 1,700
Plus:
Options 0 1,000
Net cash 1,000 2,700

Hmmmmm...

But Buffett says that options are bad. Beats the heck out
of me! What you pay in taxes for having a higher operating
income is more than offset by what you save on salaries.
The extra income that the optionees get comes from Wall
Street and not from the company's customers -- not from
revenue.

Of course, the diluted shares are worth less per share than
the "undiluted" ones but those undiluted shares are just a
convenient fiction for the option haters. If you have to
pay the salaries because you do not give the options, then
you never can achieve that "undiluted" status because you
simply have higher expenses.