To: Stock Farmer who wrote (75 ) 6/18/2002 8:54:42 PM From: rkral Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 786 >>JS: Is it the conditional promise itself that has value? Or the value that follows later that has value? RK: Both JS: You assert this, but you can not prove it. << I disagree. As evidence to the existence of the 'value of the conditional promise itself', I have cited: .. the FASB attempt to get the the option grant value (cost, expense) into GAAP financial statements, .. the FASB success in at least getting the option grant value into the footnotes of financial statements, and .. the fact that calls on the CBOE have a non-zero positive price. To that I add: If the conditional promise itself had no value, employees would simply ignore option grants. But they don't ignore them. They can't get enough of them. Do you not believe that the FASB has intelligent people working for it? Do you not believe that the options market knows how to price options? Have you ever heard of anyone refusing a stock option grant because the grant has no value? (You yourself have used the later argument.) >>You seem to think that somebody gained actual economic value, as opposed to having gained an expectation of future economic value that hasn't actually been gained yet. << Absolutely. Same argument as above. >>Actually Ron, in the first place, I have already referred you to the seminal paper on option valuation, which you apparently have not read. Or which you did not comprehend. << If you mean the original work by Black-Scholes back in the early 1970s, you are incorrect in your assumption. I have read it and I comprehend it. >>JS: So where you claim that there are two values, indeed there is but one value!!! Measured as it is from two different perspectives, one of which is perfectly accurate but retrospective, and one of which is prospective but prone to error. RK: John, you've made that presentation many times .. and, as best I can recall, always without any proof .. or even a shred of corroborating opinion. JS: "OK. Try this for proof. Let's start by assuming you are correct. That is to say, that the fair value of an option is DIFFERENT than the expected future value on exercise. << Whoa! Where did that come from? I agree with the premise that the fair value of an option IS THE SAME AS the discounted expected future value on exercise. I originally disagreed, and still disagree, with your "indeed is but one value" statement. And I see no connection between this statement and the proof you presented. "One value"? Are you elevating the employee stock option to the level of a "store of value" like .. like gold bullion? As you know, the valuation (hence, value) of an option continually changes. Market prices change, volatility changes, expiration draws nearer, etc. The employee stock option has one valuation on grant, and another valuation on exercise. Are you applying some subtle definition difference between value and the result of a valuation? If so, why are you keeping it a secret? From what you have presented, I do not understand your one value concept. Would you please try again and clarify? The proof you presented is an excellent rigorous proof. Especially since proving a basic concept is often more difficult than a more complicated proof. Your effort is commendable but, .. unfortunately, was unnecessary. Had you allowed for the possibility that my intelligence was higher than you were giving me credit for, you would have realized that most likely I understood a concept that basic. Then you might also have realized the disagreement was with your conclusion and not a premise .. and saved yourself a lot of effort. Ron