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To: Dayuhan who wrote (15235)	6/24/2002 10:09:31 AM
From: Neocon	Respond to of 21057

You take a utilitarian view of justice. Okay. I do not think it comprehends what is commonly meant by the term, regardless of whether such usage has a cosmic warrant, or merely reflects our idealization of "the way things should be". The way it functions in our "deep culture", justice is the proper ordering of things, and retributive justice is a way to restore the balance sheet once evil has been done. Justice is not merely socially useful, but reflects what we most care about as human beings, and our attempt to uphold those values in order to inform human life with meaning.

To: Dayuhan who wrote (15235)	6/24/2002 2:39:33 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 21057

"We don't even know with any certainty that there is a balance to be restored, do we?" In the practical aspect of time on this earth, it is definitely out of balance. Most of us will go to our graves with feelings of having been encroached upon, denied vindication, or as out and out victims. Far from balanced in the usual scheme of things...more like the usual scam of things. However, we do have a social conscience that drives us in our attempts make things "right." Some of us have a belief in universal balance and justice that extends beyond the temporal description I provided above. I don't think we want to turn this into a religious debate (partly because I see myself on your side in this so far). So, for the religious folk I am offering as a point of order; "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord." The retributive elements of our justice system always fall short of satiating the human need for such. It only creates an atmosphere of dissatisfaction, disappointment, and distrust in the justice system. To put retribution as the central focus of justice is a huge mistake IMO. "If our search for justice - which is a concept we invented, pursued through a system we created - can protect us from malefactors without stepping on the rights which we have decided all citizens are to be accorded, that would be quite enough for me. That's a pretty ambitious goal in its own right,... This is a worthy goal and we are falling far short of anything related to this goal. Our criminal courts are revolving doors for our criminals. Constructive resolution to criminal behavior should be the only goal of our system. The protection of citizenry and the assurances a peaceful coexistance should be the focus of our justice system. Incarceration, or other resources should be seen as bringing about this outcome and where they don't, or can't, other measures should be defined.