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To: Neocon who wrote (15355)	6/24/2002 11:35:19 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 21057

When someone is tried, he is being made accountable. When convicted, he has been designated responsible. It would seem to me that, at this point, he has not "gotten away with it." If that is all that is required, then that's all we need to do. But holding people accountable is not all there is. Beyond that, we need to protect society from further offenses by both the convicted party and other similarly situated potential offenders. We also need to provide reparations to the victim to the extent that we can. I don't see that a schedule of jail terms based on crime severity serves those purposes very well. It may reinforce some element of our "deep culture" but it isn't very sensible because it doesn't meet the practical needs of society. It is the only paradigm, because it is the only way we can show that we take matters of justice seriously, rather than letting people sneer at the rules. I think I have already proven my original point, which is that there is more than one possible paradigm. You are into the cosmic morality paradigm and I am into a utilitarian paradigm. Point to me.

To: Neocon who wrote (15355)	6/24/2002 2:54:21 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

"Penance is essential. But penance requires both that one expiate guilt, and that the expiation reflect the relative severity of the offense. Accepting responsibility means accepting guilt; if one is guilty, one needs to expiate; and expiation cannot be cheap if the offense is grave." Some boys on the playground got into a scuffle. A big boy was on top of a smaller boy giving him a beating for cheating. The Physical Education teacher happened to be present. So he separated the boys until the swinging stopped. Then he told the boys to, tell each other they were sorry, shake hands, and to stop the fighting...which they did. After school the bigger of the two waited in ambush for the other boy as he walked home from school and finished the job. The smaller boy did not cheat when the big boys were around ever again. The smaller boy however did not establish penance. He merely chose his targets more carefully and learned from the beating to make sure he was the big boy in his associations. He became a horrible bully. This is the outcome when the central focus is on retributive justice.