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Pastimes : THE SLIGHTLY MODERATED BOXING RING -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (15436)	6/25/2002 3:29:05 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

I agree with every word of that post. Yet, even when we are on the same page I fear we are not seeing it the same. "It is very simple. We teach how to regard acts by our responses. Through punishment, we make someone take responsibility, and show that we consider what was done bad." I would substitute the word "consequences" for punishment. If my child is inattentive to my directions on how to play safely she may end up with a broken arm. So, I will take her to the Doctor where she will be fixed up with a cast. Now for many months she will not have the use of that arm. This causes great hardship for her and she suffers greatly. The problem of having broken her arm is resolved constructively. She may and should consider the consequence punishing. She also has likely experienced remorse at not having listened to my instructions and has made a committment to take safety instructions more serious in the future. I could have grounded her or spanked her to make more plain my disapproval and to intend suffering as a parental punishment. In doing so, it is likely that she would interpret my actions as cruel and focused on her grounding and my guidelines as the main issue of her suffering. The connection here is that she would not be suffering (the grounding) if she had not gotten caught breaking the rules. The possibility is now raised that she will be more careful to not get caught breaking safety rules. Had she not broken her arm she would not have gotten caught. So, breaking her arm became evidence in the crime and grounding punishment but may have lost significance to her otherwise. (I do use grounding in other circumstances btw) "The disapproval is manifested in the suffering, unmistakably. That is how they know to take us seriously." When my girls were very young, I used the "big eye" to indicate disapproval. My right eye is almost closed where as the left eye is big and wide and glaring. The eyebrows must form a crinkled scowl. This was the most punishing thing they could imagine. They told their friends they would rather be spanked or that I would just yell at them. Because I was their beloved Daddy, they would do anything to win the approving smile back. Now they beg me to do the "big eye" thing at dinner time. It has become entertaining for them. The point is disapproval by the significant authority is essential for the actor to take responsibility for their actions. Again the disapproval is likely to result in suffering and to be felt as punishing to the criminal whether 3 years old or 30. The intent to cause suffering for your enemy does not result in them seeking your approval. It only results in strategies to get around your efforts. We know that once the goal is set to commit a crime, there is little we can do until the crime is successfully attempted. Adult criminals are often times enemies of the state. Showing our disapproval only encourages better criminal strategies. "How would it be if I admonished someone over and over about something, and then treated a deliberate transgression as if it made no difference, or should be rewarded?" I hate to see children misbehaving without effective consequences to stop the bad behavior. We have all witnessed the parent who repeatedly says "no, no" to behavior that continues as if the child is deaf; then the parent raises their voice shouting "stop that." The behavior continues. The parent then starts the threats of "your really going to get it if you don't stop" or worse from the fifties, "wait until your father gets home." The behavior doesn't stop until something awful happens and children are crying over the outcome of the bad behavior. Then the child heres the adult retelling the story to a friend while they both laugh over the events. Do we do this with adults? Seen any Heist movies lately? "I have to show that I am offended, or set in motion the societal gears for registering offense. This is not merely a statement, but a deliberate deprivation, humiliation, and/or affirmative infliction that registers the gravity of offense, and determination that you should not "get away with it"........." Yes. Absolutely. First of all, I don't believe anybody gets away with anything. However, I also think we have to do everything possible to bring the message to the perp that we are taking our best shot at putting a stop to bad behavior. When one of my daughters was timed out in her room she would cry and throw a terrible tantrum. I would go into the bedroom when she was calm and tell her how badly (sincerely) it made me feel to see her this sad, and that when she was ready to take responsibility for the bad thing she had done, I wanted to start over with smiling faces and hugs. A compassionate society is able to determine a constructive and resolute consequence while puting an arm on the shoulder and with sincerety say, "We feel very sorry for your suffering in this condition and would like to help in any way we can to aleviate this suffering, eliminate your misery, and welcome you back into a decent society once you are ready." This is a far cry from the justice system making the purely retributive, "hey you POS gimme an eye for they eye you took from Sarah."