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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: epicure who wrote (52136)7/1/2002 9:37:57 AM
From: Lane3  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486
 
I share your concern. I value the melting pot as one of the most important priorities of our country and I worry about damaging the institution that is its last best support. Moynihan has an interesting take on it.

washingtonpost.com
A Promise Long Deferred
Voucher verdict decides an issue as old as King George.

By Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Monday, July 1, 2002; Page A17

The Supreme Court decision that it is constitutional for public funds to be used to support students in nonpublic schools brings a kind of closure to an issue that has been with us from the beginning. (Among the tyrannical acts of George III, the Declaration of Independence charges him with "abolishing the free System of English Law in a neighboring Province" -- which is to say the granting of religious tolerance to Catholics in Quebec.)

As regards public education, the issue also was present at the creation or soon thereafter. New York led the way with aid to religious schools -- there were no public schools -- from early in the 19th century. In 1840 the Whig governor William H. Seward, who was to be Lincoln's secretary of state, put the matter plain in a message to the legislature.

"The children of foreigners, found in great numbers in our populous cities and towns, and in the vicinity of our public works, are too often deprived of the advantages of our system of public education, in consequence of prejudices arising from the difference of language or religion. It ought never to be forgotten that the public welfare is as deeply concerned in their education as in that of our own children. I do not hesitate, therefore, to recommend the establishment of schools in which they may be instructed by teachers speaking the same language with themselves and professing the same faith." (As regards differences of language, as many as a third of the "Canal Irish" spoke Gaelic.)

The argument for Seward's proposal was further advanced in 1841 when New York Secretary of State John C. Spencer, ex officio superintendent of public schools, laid out the case in a state paper. It was, first of all, good policy: Schools would compete for students by teaching them better. And it was also common sense, as was plain to any Whig of that time: "No books can be found, no reading lessons can be selected, which do not contain more or less of some principles of religious faith, either directly avowed or indirectly assumed."

That view failed; not least because of the Catholics they meant to help. The cardinal in New York took the matter into politics. The issue grew radioactive and stayed that way for a century.

Then came the baby boom following World War II. "Federal aid to education" became a national issue. Save for occupational education and some other odd bits, education had always been a matter for state and local governments. But in the aftermath of the New Deal and the war, it seemed not only pressing but logical that the federal government should pitch in.

Almost everyone agreed, not least the Catholic bishops, who had been running the schools for a century and a half. But with one condition: They wished those schools to take part in any federal program.

Stalemate. The 1950s came and went. JFK was elected. Nothing happened. Then in 1963 Nathan Glazer and I published "Beyond the Melting Pot," in which the early New York experience was recounted. A history long forgotten returned somewhat. As a member of the subcabinet I was asked if I could work out some language for the 1964 Democratic Party platform. I was joined by the inventive commissioner of education, Francis Keppel, and the irrepressible Msgr. Francis T. Hurley, later bishop of Alaska. Our text went into the platform unchanged:

"We believe that education is the surest and most profitable investment a nation can make. Regardless of family financial status, therefore, education should be open to every boy or girl in America up to the highest level which he or she is able to master. . . . New methods of financial aid must be explored, including the channeling of federally collected revenues to all levels of education and, to the extent permitted by the Constitution, to all schools."

The Elementary and Secondary Education Act was signed by Lyndon B. Johnson on April 9, 1965. Federal funds began to flow. But Catholics in Catholic schools got nothing but an occasional trailer for St. Agnes or whatever, where students could learn physics without papal meddling. But little else. We broke our word.

But that is behind us! Ahead are troubles, to be sure. Our country has all manner of religions; Arlington Cemetery has 33 denominational headstones. But at least the Democratic Party can claim to be prophetic and support school vouchers.

The writer, a former Democratic senator from New York, is a professor at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University.

© 2002 The Washington Post Company washingtonpost.com
A Promise Long Deferred
Voucher verdict decides an issue as old as King George.

By Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Monday, July 1, 2002; Page A17

The Supreme Court decision that it is constitutional for public funds to be used to support students in nonpublic schools brings a kind of closure to an issue that has been with us from the beginning. (Among the tyrannical acts of George III, the Declaration of Independence charges him with "abolishing the free System of English Law in a neighboring Province" -- which is to say the granting of religious tolerance to Catholics in Quebec.)

As regards public education, the issue also was present at the creation or soon thereafter. New York led the way with aid to religious schools -- there were no public schools -- from early in the 19th century. In 1840 the Whig governor William H. Seward, who was to be Lincoln's secretary of state, put the matter plain in a message to the legislature.

"The children of foreigners, found in great numbers in our populous cities and towns, and in the vicinity of our public works, are too often deprived of the advantages of our system of public education, in consequence of prejudices arising from the difference of language or religion. It ought never to be forgotten that the public welfare is as deeply concerned in their education as in that of our own children. I do not hesitate, therefore, to recommend the establishment of schools in which they may be instructed by teachers speaking the same language with themselves and professing the same faith." (As regards differences of language, as many as a third of the "Canal Irish" spoke Gaelic.)

The argument for Seward's proposal was further advanced in 1841 when New York Secretary of State John C. Spencer, ex officio superintendent of public schools, laid out the case in a state paper. It was, first of all, good policy: Schools would compete for students by teaching them better. And it was also common sense, as was plain to any Whig of that time: "No books can be found, no reading lessons can be selected, which do not contain more or less of some principles of religious faith, either directly avowed or indirectly assumed."

That view failed; not least because of the Catholics they meant to help. The cardinal in New York took the matter into politics. The issue grew radioactive and stayed that way for a century.

Then came the baby boom following World War II. "Federal aid to education" became a national issue. Save for occupational education and some other odd bits, education had always been a matter for state and local governments. But in the aftermath of the New Deal and the war, it seemed not only pressing but logical that the federal government should pitch in.

Almost everyone agreed, not least the Catholic bishops, who had been running the schools for a century and a half. But with one condition: They wished those schools to take part in any federal program.

Stalemate. The 1950s came and went. JFK was elected. Nothing happened. Then in 1963 Nathan Glazer and I published "Beyond the Melting Pot," in which the early New York experience was recounted. A history long forgotten returned somewhat. As a member of the subcabinet I was asked if I could work out some language for the 1964 Democratic Party platform. I was joined by the inventive commissioner of education, Francis Keppel, and the irrepressible Msgr. Francis T. Hurley, later bishop of Alaska. Our text went into the platform unchanged:

"We believe that education is the surest and most profitable investment a nation can make. Regardless of family financial status, therefore, education should be open to every boy or girl in America up to the highest level which he or she is able to master. . . . New methods of financial aid must be explored, including the channeling of federally collected revenues to all levels of education and, to the extent permitted by the Constitution, to all schools."

The Elementary and Secondary Education Act was signed by Lyndon B. Johnson on April 9, 1965. Federal funds began to flow. But Catholics in Catholic schools got nothing but an occasional trailer for St. Agnes or whatever, where students could learn physics without papal meddling. But little else. We broke our word.

But that is behind us! Ahead are troubles, to be sure. Our country has all manner of religions; Arlington Cemetery has 33 denominational headstones. But at least the Democratic Party can claim to be prophetic and support school vouchers.

The writer, a former Democratic senator from New York, is a professor at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University.

© 2002 The Washington Post Company



To: epicure who wrote (52136)7/1/2002 10:23:32 AM
From: Original Mad Dog  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
X, You didn't address these questions to me, but as a supporter of vouchers I thought I would take a crack at them.

I'm curious. Do your children attend public schools?

Yes. As did I throughout all my education including college and grad school.

Are you happy with those schools?

The schools my kids go to are generally quite good. But....the people who run our schools know that we as parents would not hesitate to pull one or more of our kids out to send them to private school if the public school didn't meet our needs. I have sensed a high degree of motivation on our schools' part to address issues and concerns we have. Once we suggested that we may need to explore other options if a particular issue was not addressed, and that issue and every issue since has been addressed with a great deal of energy by the district. The trouble with the system as I see it is that many, probably most, parents don't have that choice, and as a result their schools are largely unresponsive. They also have no ability in certain areas to pull their kids out of schools where the local populace is not, shall we say, "educationally oriented".

If vouchers were implemented in your area, would they make a difference to you?

I think if vouchers were implemented in our area, there would be an uproar, and it would make a difference because the demand for our school district would exceed the available space. The real dilemma of a voucher system is that the good schools, which are now rationed based on housing decisions, would have to be rationed some other way. There are a couple of nearby suburbs where the schools are not as good. The same house in the next suburb over costs 150K less, due almost solely to the difference in the quality of the schools. If the kids in that district could come freely to our district, voucher in hand, there could well be a big change not only in educational opportunity but also in housing prices. As for the effect on my local schools, it would probably increase diversity, because right now 85 percent of the students in our school (it is about 15 percent low income and the rest middle and upper middle income) are there because the parents can afford to live here. The devil will be in the details, though, because our district would likely try to prevent outside students from overrunning the district, which is already crowded.

Do you wish to see money siphoned off from your local public schools and used for religious schools?

If you spend the same money, but let the parents decide (rather than some person in our state capitol 200 miles from here) where it should be spent, I don't see how the overall spending per pupil on education changes at all.

We have a great diversity of religions in those schools. I would hate to see anything that would lessen that diversity.

We have some diversity of religion but relatively little diversity in class and income background here in the public schools in Illinois. The city of Chicago is renowned for awful public schools, and those forced to attend them are never going to have much chance to achieve certain types of life outcomes that require a top notch education. The media reports that those schools have improved, though it appears to be from "really awful" to merely "sort of awful". The other end of the spectrum, in numerous suburbs, are some of the best public schools in the world. Half the nation's perfect scores on the ACT in a couple of recent years came from Illinois, but the neighborhood Chicago schools weren't responsible for any of them. So an answer which tells kids whose parents (a) don't have money; and (b) happen to live in Chicago, that they can't have a good education but my kids can strikes me as unfair. Giving the entire per pupil expenditure for that Chicago kid to the parent in the form of a voucher which the parent can take to the best school they can find strikes me as a better way out than the present system, which essentially dooms the vast majority of these kids to failure.

There is not much that holds this country together. We have great freedom, and this allows us to continually pull apart. But the public schools at least gives us a common base or reference point.

I would prefer that mediocrity not be our nation's common base or reference point. I would prefer that a system which ensures that class mobility is limited from generation to generation not be our common base or reference point.

And I also think that under a pure voucher system, it is not only religious schools that would benefit. I think that academically oriented private schools, perhaps with differing emphases to attract parents and kids with different strengths and interests, might very well take hold if the parents had control over the money that is spent on education. Right now a private school that is not religious has no viable economic base except the very rich. Vouchers have the potential to change that in a dramatic way.

IT is true private schools can often do better educationally (by leaving out of the process the behaviorally challenged, the disabled, the student who is difficult to educate) but by allowing that, by in fact paying for it with taxpayer money, we may end up with a system that is more full of inequities than the system we have now.


That is going to be the most devilish detail of all in implementing any widespread voucher program. Schools will compete even more than they already do to show that their "average" student is doing really well. The temptation and incentive to cherry pick will be enormous. Should rules be implemented to prevent that? Would rules about diversity defeat the purpose of vouchers? What about parents who don't want their kids' stimulating intellectual environment to be adversely affected by "slow" kids? Should their choice be validated?

To me, those are the real dilemmas of a voucher system, not the religious question. It is unfortunate that this became a religious debate, which has allowed many to avoid these real issues and barriers to making a voucher system work for the benefit of parents and children alike.



To: epicure who wrote (52136)7/1/2002 5:49:27 PM
From: jlallen  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
Do your children attend public schools?

Yep.

Are you happy with those schools?

I am happy for the most part. I don't appreciate the political correctness and political indoctrination and have taken steps to correct that aspect. In NH, local control of schools is very tight. Parents/taxpayers have a very strong voice in curriculum, funding, etc.

If vouchers were implemented in your area, would they make a difference to you?

I would like to have the choice available.

Do you wish to see money siphoned off from your local public schools and used for religious schools?

Private schools are not necessarily "religious schools". and, moreover this is a straw argument not based in fact. When vouchers are exercised under all the proposals I've seen the voucher issued is usually less than the per pupil cost in that system. The schools actually get a subsidy because when they issue the voucher, they lose the student but retain a significant portion of the funding. This is an NEA bullshit argument. Typical demolib scare type tactic.

My children attend public schools. We have a great diversity of religions in those schools. I would hate to see anything that would lessen that diversity.

I attended a parochial school for several years. We had enrolled as students blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. My parochial school was actually more integrated than the local public school in the lily white suburb I lived in.

You support abortion rights, n'est ce pas? So just think of this as another "choice" which ought not to be abridged to keep a bunch of deadbeat "educators" in chips....

JLA