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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Win Smith who wrote (33946)7/8/2002 7:37:28 PM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
The central themes of Lewis work, that most Islamic states are failures and that its culture is in deep trouble, are points made by Moslems who are not handicapped by blinders. Said not once dealt directly with Lewis' arguments, only viciously attacked the method and the messenger. I'd say he is a perfect example of a wasted talent. I suspect he agrees with Lewis' conclusions, though not with the way Lewis arrived at them. Wonder what he has to say about this:

economist.com



To: Win Smith who wrote (33946)7/8/2002 8:17:05 PM
From: JohnM  Respond to of 281500
 
Win,

How did you get that text? It's not on the Harper's website, at least not so I could find. And I noticed you don't have a url.



To: Win Smith who wrote (33946)7/8/2002 8:29:38 PM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hi ; My favorite sentence: "To understand anything about human history, it is necessary to see it from the point of view of those who made it, not to treat it as a packaged commodity or as an instrument of aggression."

-- Carl

P.S. As far as summer reading lists go, Said included some here: "I would therefore suggest that one should begin with some of the copious first-person accounts of Islam available in English that describe what it means to be a Muslim, as in Muhammad Asad's extraordinary book The Road to Mecca (a gripping account of how Leopold Weiss, 1900-92, born in Lvov, became a Muslim and Pakistan's U.N. representative), or in Malcolm X's account in his memoir, or in Taha Hussein's great autobiography, The Stream of Days."

I recently read The Seven Storey Mountain (Thomas Merton), and loved it.



To: Win Smith who wrote (33946)7/8/2002 8:35:44 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
It should be noted that Orientalist learning itself was premised on the silence of the native, who was to be represented by an Occidental expert speaking ex cathedra on the native's behalf, presenting that unfortunate creature as an undeveloped, deficient, and uncivilized being who couldn't represent himself. But just as it has now become inappropriate for white scholars to speak on behalf of "Negroes," it has, since the end of classical European colonialism, stopped being fashionable or even acceptable to pontificate about the Oriental's (i.e., the Muslim's, or the Indian's, or the Japanese's) "mentality."


Notice how Said says outright that white people are no longer allowed to present themselves as experts on "Negroes" or any non-European culture, without giving a single instance of this alleged Orientalist patronising in the book he's reviewing. Notice how he does not make this prohibition conditional on what the scholars do or do not know. If he made the case that the scholars did not have adequate depth of knowledge he might make his case. No, it is western scholars trying to explain the mideast to other westerners that is forbidden; scholarship is now supposed to be totally subservient to group identity politics.

I find this attitude more racist than anything he's reacting against.



To: Win Smith who wrote (33946)7/8/2002 10:50:56 PM
From: Dennis O'Bell  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Reading Said often makes me think of the Sphex wasp in Douglas Hofstadter's essay On the Seeming Paradox of Mechanizing Creativity.



To: Win Smith who wrote (33946)7/9/2002 2:09:29 AM
From: LindyBill  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
it's not exactly surprising that the locals eat up Lewis and sneer at Said.

Yes, we do. And for good reason. Where do I start with Edward W. Said's book review of Armstrong and Lewis? Let me count the ways. ;-) He is summed up this way at the "Encyclopedia of the Orient" Web Site:

Said's broad fame is principally connected to his book Orientalism, published in 1978, in which he strongly criticises Western social, historical and religious studies of the Middle East and North Africa . Said accuses Western scientists of often being victims of prejudices, of reducing Oriental cultures and religions, compared to Western. In general Said protests against Western disposition to paint the Orient as exotic, different, traditional sensual and fanatic.

First off, He is described as a "Palestinian activist" in the Bio of him in the Magazine, "Third World Traveler" for an article he wrote on Terrorism published August of 2001, just before 9/11. Here is a quote that gives the flavor of that article.

First of all, this relentless pursuit of terrorism is, in my opinion, almost criminal. It allows the United States to do what it wishes anywhere in the world......The greatest source of terrorism is the U.S. itself and some of the Latin American countries, not at all the Muslim ones. But they're used, partly manipulated by the Israeli lobby, partly by Defense and State Department interests, to keep America in its policies and to intimidate people. thirdworldtraveler.com

So we should have been worried about Terrorism from South America, not Islam, just before 9/11. I tend to judge a man's expertise by his ability to predict. I don't expect him to predict 9/11, but when he is this far off I think his "blinders" on Islam show.

He is not above a little violence toward Israel himself. This is from Oct, 2000

When Edward Said, and outspoken Palestinian advocate, hurled a rock toward an Israeli guardhouse from the Lebanese border in July, a photographer caught the action. The photo, which captured Mr. Said with his arm reached far behind him ready to throw, appeared in newspapers and magazines in the Middle East and the United States.When challenged later, Mr. Said, who had been on a trip with his family at the time, dismissed the action as trivial, 'a symbolic gesture of joy' that Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon had ended. But others saw it as scandalous and called on Columbia to reprimand Mr. Said, or at least repudiate his behavior.For two months, Columbia gave no reply. But yesterday, in response to a request from student government leaders of Columbia College, Columbia broke its silence. Its answer: Mr. Said's behavior is protected under the principles of academic freedom.http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2000/Oct/74.html

And the left in this country wonders why the right is pissed at Professors in our Universities? Oh, well, I guess, "boys will be boys."

In reviewing his "review", the following stood out.

He says that "Islam" is too varied and confusing to be reduced to essentials. He refuses to recognize that the "Koran" is the binding element in all of the Islamic Societies, and that this does make it possible to look at them all from this essential.

His slams at Lewis, Huntington, and Armstrong are typical academia backbiting, and don't make him any bigger or them any smaller.

His whole career seems to be built around his book, "Orientalism," in which he attempts to do to White Scholars on Islam what the "Black Studies" Professors have been doing to White Scholars on black American History: tell them that they are not qualified to study the area because of their race. This is racism of the first order. It is working in today's Academic climate, but I think it will fail, long term.

His main point of attack, the influence of Western Classical Music in Islam, is a "Straw Man". Lewis is right that this music is of little consequence in Islam. If you go to Japan, you will find as many, or more, music stations playing Western Classical Music as you do in America or Europe. You will find none in Islamic countries.

I won't end by slamming him the way he slammed Lewis, as much as I would like to. His record speaks for itself.