Solon,
<< No. I don't presume that "God's" blessing was determined by the incest >>
Good, then we have determined that the concept of “the blessings of incest” that you claimed on 7/1 was in the Bible is completely foreign to the Text.
<< "Fornication by definition means sex outside of marriage, so Abraham and Sarah never committed fornication together"
That is a wild statement. … Who told you this? >>
www.m-w.com
“fornication: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other”
My statement was simply a definition of terms (“by definition”).
<< you make this wild statement that he and Sarah did not practice incest till after they were married >>
The context of the discussion was that since Abraham married his half-sister, you claim he committed incest in their marriage. We were not talking about what might or might not have happened before they were married, so don’t claim that I claimed that they didn’t have sex before marriage. The Bible is silent on that question, so I will remain so also. Do you really have that much trouble understanding the context of things, or are you just a shrewd debater? <ggg>
<< RIGHTEOUS
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2 a : morally right or justifiable >>
Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;” (NKJ)
The Bible teaches us that none of us are righteous. By God’s standard, and your definition, we are all guilty before God and deserve eternal judgment.
The Old Testament clearly documents Lot’s wickedness and sin. Yet in 2 Peter 2:7, Peter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit calls him “righteous Lot”. Does that mean that Lot “act[ed] in accord with divine or moral law” and was “morally right or justifiable” based on his actions (works)? Of course not! Paul repeats in Romans 3:23: “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (NKJ).
So how could Peter call Lot “righteous”? So how can anyone be righteous? So how can anyone be saved from the punishment that we so richly deserve?
That is what the book of Romans is all about! Paul’s book is the definitive explanation of justification by faith alone. Let’s review the context of the verse I just quoted. If Romans 3:23 condemns us all as sinners, we should see what the Holy Spirit through Paul is telling us about our condition:
Rom 3:20-31
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (NKJ)
It should be clear that God does not declare anyone righteous because of their works. Righteousness only comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (NKJ)
Rom 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (NKJ)
Romans 3:25 above states that “in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed”. The Old Testament documents God’s promise that He will send a Messiah to cleanse His people from their sins. Hebrews 11 uses the phrase “by faith” almost twenty times to emphasize that righteousness comes by faith and not by works. Hebrews 11:6 states that “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:13 points out that these Old Testament believers died without receiving the promise, because the Savior had not yet come in their lifetimes. The New Testament documents the birth, life, death, and resurrection of the Savior. After Jesus Christ paid the price for Lot’s sins on the cross, Peter was able to call him “righteous Lot”.
John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (NKJ)
I rejoice that God will declare me “righteous Ken”, not because of any good works that I have done, and certainly not because of any absence of sinfulness on my own part, but solely because Jesus Christ paid the price and wiped clean the slate for me.
This is no way infers God’s approval of Lot’s sins, or Abraham’s sins, or my sins. Stating such would be ripping the verses out of context and completely misrepresenting the teachings of Holy Scripture. Claiming that God approved of Lot’s wicked deeds demonstrates your lack of understanding of what the Bible teaches about righteousness and what the Bible teaches about sin.
<< God called him "righteous", and His actions show that He so considered him. If God hated sin He could have fried him like He did the others. >>
Yes, Lot deserved to fry like the rest of them, without question. If not for Abraham’s intercession on Lot’s behalf in Genesis 18, perhaps he would have fried. Grace is God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense. Grace is unmerited favor. God’s favor shown to Lot in no way indicates merit on Lot’s behalf.
<< "Verses 4 through 32 which you quoted are NOT a prescription to cure leprosy. Those steps were only to be performed if the leper had ALREADY been healed!"
Don't get hung-up on semantics. >>
Don’t get hung-up on semantics?!?!?
I was simply pointing out that THE VERSE YOU QUOTED SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU CLAIMED IT SAYS! You claimed that these verses describe a ceremony that was a CURE for leprosy, when instead they describe a ceremony that was only to be performed AFTER A LEPER HAD ALREADY BEEN CURED! Your criticism of the text was completely without merit and shows that you weren't paying attention to what the verse clearly states! You call the Bible absurd and then demonstrate your own ignorance!
This is black and white, and you try to hide behind the claim that I am getting hung up on semantics?!?!? You are unbelievable! That dog won’t hunt and you know it!
We are talking about what the Word of God says. On July 1st, you claimed that “The Bible is full of contradictions and absurdities”. A week later, you claimed that the Bible offered “The cure for leprosy--as ordered by the All-Wise God.” After I pointed out that the verses you quoted clearly applied to a ceremonial cleansing AFTER THE LEPER WAS ALREADY HEALED (see Leviticus 14:3), you tell me not to pay attention to “semantics”. I take very seriously what the Word of God says, and you obviously don’t.
This is clearly your problem. You criticize that which you don’t understand … and that which you don’t want to understand. You are desperately looking for excuses so that you can condemn the Bible as myth because you don’t want to believe that you are under God’s wrath for your sins.
After claiming that the Bible was “full of contradictions and absurdities”, you chose Leviticus 14 as your proof text. Despite your obvious error, I graciously stated that “This is a simple misunderstanding.” Instead of admitting your error and agreeing that this chapter did not claim to offer a cure for leprosy, you instead tried to change the subject and say that it wasn’t important.
Yes, the Bible can be a difficult book to understand in places, but much of its teachings are crystal clear. To throw out the Book because of your own ignorance is not wise.
As I stated on July 8th, “While I am not a Biblical scholar, I am familiar enough with the Book to know that it can stand up under the most intense scrutiny.” Going back to Hebrews 11:
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (NKJ)
You are reading the Bible looking for contradictions and absurdities, and it is certainly very easy to find things that you don’t understand. Unfortunately, you have demonstrated that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you. You won’t listen to reason and you won’t admit when you are wrong. Leviticus 14:3 couldn’t be any clearer. You take the Bible out of context and you misquote me. You play games with semantics to create multiple rabbit trails, and then you tell me not to get hung-up on semantics when I point out what the verse you quoted clearly states.
A text without context is a pretext for heresy and immorality.
I pray that God’s grace and mercy will open your eyes and reveal to you the Truth.
Sincerely - Ken |
