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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (53536)	7/30/2002 9:33:42 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Although supporting unions is not necessarily the same as supporting workers, there are plenty of unions that do good work. You can't possibly have had experience with all unions, and even you have to admit the possibility that perhaps your position on unions is biased by your experience and your political beliefs. I know my position on unions is biased by at least those two thing. What you suggest, scrapping the system, is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Unions have done a lot of good for people with low level jobs who have had injuries, or harassment at work. I doubt you ran into many of those people. Intelligent educated people might be able to take care of their own issues by collectivising in some nebulous way, but people without education, and without options need advocates, and they need advocates that are readily available when they are faced with immediate hazards at work, or the threat of losing a job that may be the only think standing between them and homelessness.

To: Lane3 who wrote (53536)	7/30/2002 10:00:25 AM
From: Rambi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

I have really mixed feelings about unions. The original concept was certainly good and necessary, for the reasons X states, but the organizations have taken on lives of their own and as such can lose the original purpose in their need to survive, grow bigger, have more power. And some of the groups represented, like airline pilots, aren't exactly untrained, ignorant, pitiful and abused. The saddest thing regarding unions I have ever seen on the job was when oblivious bargaining unit employees came to the realization that their union was the major obstacle to office improvements, not management. Delta flight attendants have no union-- and most don't want one. They have some of the best benes in the business, and a very good relationship with their management, according to my friends with Delta. (American should have such a good one-- unions and American management square off like hissing cats). Last year AFA made a huge effort to get Delta attendants into the fold and it was resoundingly voted down. The union was furious since it would have meant a huge increase in membership and lots and lots of money in the union coffers (something like 10 million a year in dues). They made a lot of accusations of intimidation by and fear of management causing their defeat, and I think threatened to sue, but my best friend (a FA for over 25 years) says that if anything, the intimidation and lies came from the AFA and the FAs were just flat out opposed to unions coming in-- that they had a great relationship with mgmt and saw what a mess American had with the union. It's in a union's own interest to have an adversarial relationship with mgt. I see unions in some instances as being merely another type of controlling, powerhungry management that can seriously damage a company with demands that counter the best interests of the company,and don't always have their members' best interests at heart, as in the misguided effort by the pilots' union a couple of years ago that wound up costing them a great deal of money (and caused a change of leadership in the unions-- a good thing). On the other hand, I can certainly see the need for them when management sucks workers dry and discards them, or places profit over workers' needs. I guess it reflects as everything we humans construct seems to, the best and the worst of us. 4freedomforce.com