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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: LindyBill who wrote (35933)8/5/2002 2:28:20 AM
From: Maurice Winn  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Good for Garry Kasparov. The Iraqi oil [after the fires are extinguished, pipelines rebuilt and wells rebored - Saddam will destroy them] can be used to fund police in Iraq for restoration of civil order and to establish a new regime.

The arrogant assumption that Arabs are unfit for civil order including democracy would be easily tested with a good cash flow from increased oil production funding a UN-backed restoration of civilization. Turkey is democratic and achieving it with civil disputes and no major oil revenues. Okay, they aren't exactly the same people, but the background is comparable; Moslem, poor, rural [perhaps now mainly urban].

Having 400,000 uniforms and pay packets ready to go for Iraqi soldiers and police who swap sides would be very tempting when they see that things really are serious and they know that it will NOT be a good idea to be on the losing side.

Americans never did understand British Colonialism and how it was a good thing, bringing civilization to barbarians. Britain didn't just shoot its way to power. Contrary to ignorant rumour, Maoris weren't defeated; they were bribed and became fully-fledged British Subjects.

Americans got hung up in their Declaration of Independence, IRA terrorism support, "The British are coming" and tax revolt. Americans are about to learn some benefits of Colinisation and Condominiums as brought to a screen near you, live, by Colinisation Powell and Condominium Rice.

Americans will just have to accept that they are running an empire and see if they can adopt the best of the British colonisation techniques, habeas corpus, rule of law, universal human rights, including those at Guantanamo Bay and stuff like that. They wouldn't want to be evil empire builders. We hope.

Mqurice



To: LindyBill who wrote (35933)8/5/2002 5:54:33 AM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 281500
 
If the United States openly attacks a country which has not initiated force against it or any other nation, then the entire history of the US will be transformed into something I will find unrecognizable.

The comparison of Iraq with Nazi Germany is risible to anyone who actually bothers to read history. Hitler took power in 1933 and openly geared Germany, at that time the third (maybe second) biggest GDP in the world, into creating a war machine (Wehrmacht) that was one of the most deadly -- maybe the most deadly per capita -- the world had ever seen. Ask a military historian whether the Soviets alone, or the Allies alone, could have beaten Germany. I believe you will learn that Hitler's fatal error was fighting a two front war.

Sneer at Chamberlain all you want, but he bought time for Great Britain (about a year) which allowed them to gear up for the inevitable war. The Wehrmacht was truly deadly, and everyone at that time knew it. Maybe the Allies should have stood their ground, or attacked? War gamers game that situation all the time, but the results are not strongly in favor of either solution. Chamberlain's choice was not a bad one, even in retrospect.

The country we are really appeasing, in my opinion, is China. Which, interestingly, is arming the various hostile nations which Dubya called "the Axis of evil" (Iran, Iraq, North Korea.) Kinda mindblowing, don't you think? When thinking about really scary people, the "Arab street" isn't what comes to my mind. Rather, it's the politbureau in China. The ones with the transcontinental nuclear weapons.

At any rate, we(United States) do not initiate force. If we should decide to initiate force, then we are tacitly agreeing that all other nations have the right to initiate force.

Or maybe the Monroe Doctrine is outdated? The world is our oyster? It's all within our sphere of influence?

If so, God help me, I did not sign on for this.



To: LindyBill who wrote (35933)8/5/2002 10:06:07 AM
From: BigBull  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
LB, looks like Rumsfeld wants to turn the "Powell Doctrine" on it's head! Read the WT story below. Engage in limited warfare, take the fight to the enemy, and stay on the offensive. Imo Afghanistan was the first crude look at how Rumsfeld wants to wage war. Just read "The Lessons of Terror" by Caleb Carr. Carr recomends precisely what Rumsfeld is doing or wants to do. Iraq will be slightly different due to Saddams force structure. Hackworth says it may be the last time we see any tank battles worthy of the name. Some follow up reading on Moltke and Frederick the Great. I have concluded that Rumsfeld is one smart mother f. :o}

Pentagon plan seeks countries' OK to attack cells
washingtontimes.com
A new Pentagon counterterrorism plan calls for making arrangements with some foreign countries to allow U.S. commandos on their soil to attack terrorist cells. Top Stories

Two senior U.S. officials with knowledge about the planning say Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld wants such procedures in place so special operations forces can act on intelligence in hours, not days or weeks.
The sources said it is too early to predict whether such agreements can be worked out with all nations where al Qaeda cells exist.
Senior defense officials also want such clandestine missions deemed acts of war so they stay outside the control of civilian law enforcement, the officials said.
Mr. Rumsfeld last month ordered his top special operations officer, Gen. Charles R. Holland, to devise a new, more aggressive war plan to capture or kill al Qaeda terrorists around the world. Officials said the plan will rely heavily on the military's most elite counterterrorism units: Army Delta Force and Navy SEALs.
Gen. Holland on Friday came to the Pentagon to brief Mr. Rumsfeld and other senior defense officials on the first third of his evolving war plan.
The set of country-by-country agreements is just one part of what officials say is a more aggressive war plan to find, interrogate and — if necessary — kill global terrorists. The plan shifts more war planning responsibility to Gen. Holland's shop, U.S. Special Operations Command at MacDill Air Force Base in Florida.
The Washington Times first reported on the new war plan last week. Officials told The Times that Mr. Rumsfeld was impatient at the pace at which al Qaeda members were being captured or killed, especially in the Afghanistan-Pakistan theater, and wants a new plan of action.
Victoria Clarke, his spokeswoman, told reporters: "Without going into any details, we're always looking for ways to be more adaptive, to be more flexible, to be faster, to be more lethal, to go after what is a very unconventional enemy. And so a lot of people, including General Holland and Secretary Rumsfeld, the senior civilian and military leadership, will continue to try to produce exactly those sorts of plans."
A senior administration official said, "Rumsfeld believes we are not moving fast enough. He sometimes questions whether commanders are always 'leaning forward.'"
In the war on terrorism, even some staunch U.S. allies have balked at allowing American forces to fight on their soil. For example, the United States has sent hundreds of soldiers to the Philippines to aid Manila's battle against the al Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf guerrillas. But those U.S. soldiers, although they are armed and authorized to fire in self-defense, are officially there as advisers to the Philippine armed forces, and Manila has said it does not want American fighting units.
In addition to country agreements, officials say the plan will also set up procedures to infiltrate some areas without permission.
Dubbed "the first 30 percent" inside the administration, Gen. Holland's plan will also set up procedures for deploying forces without the usual bureaucratic red tape. If an intelligence source identifies a wanted terrorist leader, a Delta Force unit could move out immediately and be on target in hours, officials said.
The plan also sets up a program to screen Defense Department personnel to find those with language skills that could be helpful in covert operations, according to officials.
Although the main target is al Qaeda, the group that killed nearly 3,000 people on September 11, the plan does not limit attacks to just one group.
One official said that if, for example, a Middle East terrorist group is found responsible for killing Americans, the military could be dispatched to find or eliminate them.
Said one military officer with ties to the special operations community, "We will be operating with very little interference from above. I can't go into details, but there will be more emphasis on some of the low-profile skills that we are famous — infamous — for."

The Lessons of Terror: A History of Warfare Against Civilians: Why It Has Always Failed and Why It Will Fail Again
by Caleb Carr
amazon.com
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
Novelist and military historian Carr (The Alienist, etc.) penned this brief history of terrorism as a corrective to the widespread perception spread by ill-informed journalists and politicians that the September 11 attacks were unique and unprecedented. Carr argues from the start that terrorism must be viewed in terms of "military history, rather than political science or sociology," and that the refusal to label terrorists as soldiers, rather than criminals, is a mistake. Underlying Carr's argument is the view that a repugnant bloodthirstiness arises when one civilization, no matter how advanced, encounters another. Accordingly, as Western civilization spread throughout the 17th and 18th centuries via imperialism, and Europe's seemingly more disciplined armies encountered strange peoples such as the Aztecs, Native Americans and south Asian Indians the wholesale slaughter of noncombatants became commonplace. No liberal, Carr zooms in on the history of the U.S. and looks at how terror tactics are fundamental to U.S. military efforts. Such tactics, he shows, were first established in the Civil War, culminated with the firebombing of Germany and Japan during WWII, and reappeared later during the Vietnam War. He traces the manner in which politicians and intellectuals have sought to justify and then curtail attacks on civilians throughout history. Only occasionally dry or repetitive, this often fascinating, accessible tome skillfully contends that the terrorizing of civilians has a long and controversial history but, as an inferior method, is prone to failure; it is rooted as much in human nature as it is in the need for military expediency. (On-sale: Jan. 29)

Moltke on the Art of War: Selected Writings
amazon.com

Frederick the Great on the Art of War
amazon.com