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To: Joe Copia who wrote (22220)	8/6/2002 4:56:53 PM
From: Raymond Duray	Respond to of 74559

Hi Joe, Re: If I read your post correctly, you are condemning the US. It is crucial for people to distinguish between three separate and very distinct groups within the U.S. 1) an affable, genial, caring general public 2) a mendacious, devious, anti-democratic government bureaucracy 3) scoundrels who would profit from war, subvert the governance of the nation to their own ends and engage in the blatant corruption of crony capitalism. So, when you say I "condemn the US" you are 180 degrees off the mark. I love this nation, its people and the principles upon which it was founded. What I loathe is the elements of 2) and 3) above who seem hellbent on destroying the principles and the people of this nation with a tyranny that our Founding Father would have been repulsed by. Dissenting from the machinations of a Machiavellian midget like Dubya isn't disloyal to the nation. It may be the only thing that saves the nation from those who would despoil it for their own gain. -Ray

To: Joe Copia who wrote (22220)	8/6/2002 7:53:39 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Joe, the USA was founded and developed on the concept of free individuals and universal human rights, though that idea was not really taken seriously, with 'redskins', slaves and 'gooks' being on the receiving end of nightmare treatment. The statue of liberty is quite an icon - something to live up to. The USA is not a single entity with a life of its own. The life is that of the individuals living there. Each individual is their own sovereign self and that is what is being subsumed in the purported greater good, where the state security apparatus has a remote resemblance to the USSR KGB in trend, if not yet end result. Evil empires of totalitarian natures invariably are about the state, with individuals just replaceable spokes in the wheel of the state. To the extent that freedom is lost, taxes and other imposts are increased and liberty becomes an Orwellian phrase along the lines of Arbeit Macht Frei spectacle.org we taking steps on a journey to hell. A long journey starts with a single step. Once at the destination, it's a long way back. It's a good idea to start walking towards the right destination. Raymond is rabid, but don't let him rattle you. Don't take deep breaths. Breathe quietly and happily. I've lived in a few countries and visited many and it's naive to think the USA is the keeper of all that's good. That's why many Americans have come to New Zealand to live - they like it much better than the USA. Americans live around the world, because they like it better in their new homes. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - trite but true. Mqurice