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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (36296)	8/7/2002 12:51:12 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

They need to think that neocons either just want war for a) general macho reasons, b) more profit for the military-industrial complex, or c) to make money on oil, either by serving the House of Saud or by conquering them, take your pick. I am not a liberal, nor do I play one on TV. However, it seems to me that you are raising a straw man argument. My own arguments against attacking Iraq are as follows: 1. I remain unconvinced that Iraq poses a credible threat to US interests, "threat" meaning reasonable apprehension of eminent harm to life or property. 2. I find it suspicious that the people (neocons) who are most adamant about attacking Iraq are also the most committed to protecting Israel. The reason I am suspicious is that I do perceive Iraq as posing a credible threat to Israeli interests. I suspect that these neocons want us to attack Iraq to protect Israel. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this was not a conscious choice (to deceive or mislead the American public), but simply something that is part of their mind-set. 3. Just because one person believes that something is a danger doesn't make it a danger. Neocons have a tendency to see the world as a more threatening place than the rest of us do. That makes them more hawkish. 4. Neocons also have a tendency to want to start wars for reasons that the rest of us don't, like honor. We had to fight that stupid war in Viet Nam that we couldn't win without obliterating the place, just because none of the damned politicians could figure a way out without getting egg on their faces, which they could not tolerate. So thousands of people died so the politicians could save face. I guess that comes under your category as "general macho." 5. I remain unconvinced that at the end of the war we will be better off than when we began it. 6. This relates back to reason #1 -- since I remain unconvinced that Iraq is a credible threat to US interests, I see no useful purpose being served by pre-emptive strikes. Once we start doing that, everyone else will feel like they have the right to do this. Deterrent is just that. Once you lose it, you've lost the biggest brake on war.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (36296)	8/7/2002 12:54:17 PM
From: Win Smith	Respond to of 281500

Who cares what Krauthammer says? It's not like he doesn't have an ax to grind there. I think it is somewhat contrary to reality to say that W is often called evil in the "liberal" media, but there have been questions raised on the intelligence front there. And when it comes to mudslinging from conservatives, evil and stupid seem to get about equal play when going after doubters of current dogma. The preferred demonic terminology for those who won't ge with the program on the "War Now!" front seems to be "traitor", though. siliconinvestor.com

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (36296)	8/7/2002 3:20:42 PM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

So it's nearly impossible for liberals (here I refer to left-liberals, those whom even Johm M would call "liberal" and not "moderate"), to believe or admit, even to themselves, that the neocons are reacting to a perceived level of threat, though in a manner that they must regard as deeply mistaken. They need to think that neocons either just want war for a) general macho reasons, b) more profit for the military-industrial complex, or c) to make money on oil, either by serving the House of Saud or by conquering them, take your pick. Hey, we all need to go take a shower; cool down. Those aren't even close to my views. Let's all calm down. Well, maybe not. Whereas I'm just about out of clever comments for Hawk, I've restocked my clever comments for you. ;-))))