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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (290438)8/26/2002 3:14:37 PM
From: PROLIFE  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769670
 
You gave no clear answer, here was your non-answer:

Ah, the old Mike Dukakis question......to answer you any person who has a loved one murdered by any means will understandably want the perpetrator to have his head ripped off or be drawn and quartered. Society understands such passion. I would be no different, but that is why, in civilized society, the state takes dispassionate control of the trial and punishment of the criminal and avoids eye for eye reprisals.

I asked about YOUR children and YOUR wife and YOUR mother...
YOU, sniveler, tell me what YOU would do..or want done. Quit sniveling, and saying "any person" or "society" or trying to tie your actions to another...YOU!

RE: abortion .....the first time you become pregnant let me know your feelings then....in the meantime I don't think you have much of a say in the matter.

what a stupid reply, I thought you were smarter than that, but I guess not.

I do not know about you , you could have had another man come in to impregnate YOUR wife, but I sure did have a lot to say about my mate's pregnancy. I bet you were one of those...oh never mind...

I am still waiting for your most learnedness to tell us what Jesus says about capital punishment?



To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (290438)8/26/2002 3:18:31 PM
From: PROLIFE  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769670
 
RE: abortion .....the first time you become pregnant let me know your feelings then....in the meantime I don't think you have much of a say in the matter.

The Bitter Price of "Choice"

by Frederica Mathewes-Green

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I was in college the bumper sticker on my car read "Don't labor under a misconception --legalize abortion". I was one of a handful of feminists on my campus, back in the days when we were jeered at as "bra-burning women's libbers". As we struggled against a hazy sea of sexism, abortion rights was a visible banner, a concrete, measurable goal. Though our other foes were elusive, within the fragile boundary of our skin, at least, we would be sovereign. What could be more personal? How could any woman oppose it? I oppose it now. It has been a slow process, my path from a pro-choice to a pro-life position, and I know that unintended pregnancy raises devastating problems. But I can no longer avoid the realization that legalizing abortion was the wrong solution; we have let in a Trojan Horse whose hidden betrayal we've just begun to see.
A woman with an unplanned pregnancy faces more than "inconvenience"; many adversities, financial and social, at school, at work, and at home confront her. Our mistake was in looking at these problems and deciding that the fault lay with the woman, that she should be the one to change. We focused on her swelling belly, not the pressures that made her so desperate. We advised her, "Go have this operation and you'll fit right in."

What a choice we made for her. She climbs onto a clinic table and endures a violation deeper than rape--the nurse's hand is wet with her tears--then is grateful to pay for it, grateful to be adapted to the social machine that rejected her when pregnant. And the machine grinds on, rejecting her pregnant sisters.

It is a cruel joke to call this a woman's "choice". We may choose to sacrifice our life and career plans, or choose to undergo humiliating invasive surgery and sacrifice our offspring. How fortunate we are--we have a choice! Perhaps it's time to amend the slogan--"Abortion: a woman's right to capitulate".

If we refused to choose, if we insisted on keeping both our lives and our bodies intact, what changes would our communities have to make? What would make abortion unnecessary? Flexible school situations, more flex-time, part-time, and home-commute jobs, attractive adoption opportunities, safe family planning choices, support in handling sex responsibly: this is a partial list. Yet these changes will never come as long as we're lying down on abortion tables 1,600,000 times a year to ensure the status quo. We've adapted to this surgical substitute, to the point that Justice Blackmun could write in his Webster dissent, "Millions of women have ordered their lives around" abortion. That we have willingly ordered our lives around a denigrating surgical procedure--accepted it as the price we must pay to keep our life plans intact--is an ominous sign.

For over a hundred years feminists have warned us that abortion is a form of oppression and violence against women and their children. They called it "child-murder" (Susan B. Anthony), "degrading to women" (Elizabeth Cady Stanton), "most barbaric" (Margaret Sanger), and a "disowning [of] feminine values" (Simone de Beauvoir). How have we lost this wisdom?

Abortion has become the accepted way of dealing with unplanned pregnancies, and women who make another choice are viewed as odd, backward, and selfish. Across the nation three thousand crisis pregnancy centers struggle, unfunded and unrecognized, to help these women with housing, clothing, medical care, and job training, before and after pregnancy. These volunteers must battle the assumption that "they're supposed to abort"--especially poor women who hear often enough that their children are unwanted. Pro-choice rhetoric conjures a dreadful day when women could be forced to have abortions; that day is nearly here.

More insidiously, abortion advocacy has been poisonous to some of the deeper values of feminism. For example, the need to discredit the fetus has led to the use of terms that would be disastrous if applied to women. "It's so small", "It's unwanted", "It might be disabled", "It might be abused". Too often women are small, unwanted, disabled, or abused. Do we really want to say that these factors erase personhood?

A parallel disparaging of pregnancy itself also has an unhealthy ring. Harping on the discomforts of pregnancy treats women as weak, incompetent; yet we are uniquely equipped for this role, and strong enough to do much harder things than this. Every woman need not bear a child, but every woman should feel proud kinship in the earthy, elemental beauty of birth. To hold it in contempt is to reject our distinctive power, "our bodies, ourselves".

There is a last and still more terrible cost to abortion, one that we have not yet faced. We have treated the loss of our fetuses as a theoretical loss, a sad-but-necessary loss, as of civilians in wartime. We have not yet realized that the offspring lost are not the enemy's, nor our neighbor's, but our own. And it is not a loss of inert, amorphous tissue, but of a growing being unique in history. There are no generic zygotes. The one-cell fertilized ovum is a new individual, the present form of a tall blue-eyed girl, for example, with Grandad's red hair and Great-aunt Ida's singing voice. Look at any family, see how the traits and characteristics run down the generations in a stream. Did we really think our own children would be different?

Like the gypsy in Verdi's opera, Il Trovatore, our frustration has driven us to desperate acts. Outraged by the Count's cruel injustice, she stole his infant son and, in a crazed act of vengeance, flung him into the fire. Or so she thought. For, in turning around, she discovered the Count's son lay safe on the ground behind her; it was her own son she had thrown into the flames. In our desperate bid for justice we have not yet realized whom we have thrown into the flames. The moment of realization will be as devastating for us as it was for her.

Until that time, legal abortion invites us to go on doing it, 4500 times a day. And, with ruthless efficiency, the machine grinds on.



To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (290438)8/26/2002 3:29:29 PM
From: PROLIFE  Respond to of 769670
 
RE: abortion .....the first time you become pregnant let me know your feelings then....in the meantime I don't think you have much of a say in the matter.

I saw this ad on the net...think these fine MW's care about women? this is the name of the abortion mill::

A Woman's Choice Clinic

they are in Washington state. It would not surprise me if they had a woman on a billboard with her fist in the air.

In their advertising:

<<<For over 23 years we have provided abortion services in Yakima>>>

and hey...they take mastercard too!! more choices huh???



To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (290438)8/26/2002 3:35:18 PM
From: PROLIFE  Respond to of 769670
 
RE: abortion .....the first time you become pregnant let me know your feelings then....in the meantime I don't think you have much of a say in the matter.

Kathleen Howley's column

By Kathleen Howley
I am going to try to say this without sounding like a man-hating feminist. Here goes.

There are few things in life more disgusting than men who, when discussing abortion, use the phrase: "I can't tell a woman what to do with her body."

It's like a password. It's usually pronounced with a self-satisfied smile. They're saying, "I'm cool. I'm a supportive kinda guy. I'm sensitive to the needs of women."

Yea, right.

Sometimes, there's a slight reluctance in their voice as they recite the mantra. Those are the ones who believe that while they, personally, are opposed to abortion, they couldn't tell a woman...blah, blah, blah.

You've heard it before, I'm sure.

In most cases, these guys have never, in their lives, used the words "chaste" and "dating" in the same sentence. You can bet that many of them are pretty adroit at telling a woman what to do with her body, if it happens to serve their own needs.

Abortion, or "choice," as it's euphemistically called, becomes a requirement, for many of them, because it has the ability to erase any unforeseen problems caused by their lack of moral discretion.

I was at a G.O.P. cocktail party last week, and a man used that old line on me: "I can't tell a woman what to do with her body."

I gave him the logical response: "What about the body inside her womb? What if it's a male body, a little boy? Surely that can't be her body, because she can't be a man and a woman at the same time. Can you tell her, in that case?"

He looked at me glumly. This was not the response he expected. He probably assumed, because I'm a young woman, that I'm pro-choice.

Not a wise move. Three major studies within the last four years show that women tend to be more pro-life than men.

Makes sense, doesn't it? We're the ones with the maternal instincts, and if we know the facts of life -- meaning all the stuff you never read in the newspaper, such as what an abortion does to an unborn child -- many of us come down on the side of the baby.

I've been around enough men to know that they occasionally daydream about great feats they would perform if, for example, they suddenly found themselves trapped, with their whole platoon, under enemy fire. It's one of the most charming qualities of men, this desire to prove themselves to be brave and fearless.

But, so many men fail to realize that all around them, in our modern world, are opportunities to show their valor. Every day, they are confronted with opportunities to witness to the truth -- situations which, perhaps, take more courage than saving a platoon from enemy attack.

Once a month, I attend a rosary vigil with about 200 people in front of a local Planned Parenthood clinic. I see the woman going in for abortions, some reluctantly, some being steered through the door by a man who is probably the father of the baby.

After about 45 minutes, some of the men come out, alone, looking relieved. They did their duty and sat in the waiting room with their significant other until it was time for the abortion, and then they get to go off -- get a cup of coffee, read the paper -- while she's in the recovery room.

What bothers me is that most of these guys are dressed as if they were on a date -- as if they were on the way to the movies. Except, this date involves the destruction of their children, and the wounding of their girlfriends.

I'm with the early feminists, when it comes to abortion. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Dr. Alice Bunker Stockham, and the whole crowd of them were staunchly pro-life. They called abortion "child murder," and the "exploitation of women and children."

More emphatically, they pointed out that abortion primarily serves the needs of the predatory male. In a July, 1869, article in "The Revolution," the feminist newspaper edited by Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, the latter -- of current U.S. one-dollar coin fame-- wrote:

"Guilty? Yes, no matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; but oh! thrice guilty is he who, for selfish gratification, heedless of her prayers, indifferent to her fate, drove her to the desperation which impels her to the crime."

In her day, Susan B. Anthony was describing a tiny minority of men. Today, you'll run into hordes of them at just about any political cocktail party you attend.

But, still, there are countless other men who dare to swim against the tide -- men who respect life, and respect women, at a time when neither is required by the world.

Those are men who don't have to daydream about performing feats of great valor. They do it every



To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (290438)8/26/2002 3:36:48 PM
From: Thomas A Watson  Respond to of 769670
 
j-f, why do continue to lie as you are the person who called someone a slut. Once you start your stupid loser uttering trash remarks you just keep on trashing others and continue lying.