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Pastimes : THE SLIGHTLY MODERATED BOXING RING -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (20299)	8/27/2002 8:33:21 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 21057

on the other you may be advocating an overthrow of the government. "May be" is not good enough. In a court of law you would have to show that's what I WAS doing. And not only that, but you would have to show that I meant to do it by violence. We already agreed that if I use the legal political process, I could do it legally. AND you may NOT be "advocating an overthrow of the government". What you may have in mind is to draw attention to what you consider a grievous violation of the principles and laws of the United States. And THAT is not prosecutable. Speech and treason are entangled. Very little. If you advocate violence, there's a serious problem- -regardless of whether the intent is to overthrow the gov't or not. And even if the gov't is not the target. You have to be clear on the lines of communication that violate agreements and so breach trust and loyalties. There is an implicit agreement between I and the gov't to obey the law. Burning the flag is lawful. Q.E.D. "trust and loyalties" Mostly the gov't cannot require me to pledge loyalty to it. The only sitiuation I can think of where it could do so was the draft- -when there was one. Then I suspect then refusal to take an oath of loyalty on induction into the armed forces could get your tail in jail. I think. Freedom of speech comes with responsibility for what is spoken or expressed. That depends on what is spoken or expressed. If you called me a child molestor, you'd have a problem. If I say the gov't has gone nuts over this Iraq thing, has no grounds for war, has no legal authority to wage one, and must get Congressional authorization to use force in any case, I have no problem. Even if I burn a flag. How do you interpret the phrase "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America..." You are NOT required to recite the pledge. You cannot be punished for not doing so. Since currently we have no draft, there are no circumstances when you can be required to say those words. Or in any other way be required to express loyalty to the gov't. I have a friend who swears on his eternal soul he will never tell a lie...unless there is some benefit in it. Reminds me of this debate. I fail to see how. You may find flag burning offensive. Lots of people do. But it is legal. And it is a form of political expression and should be regarded as protected by the 1st Amendment for that reason.