To: slacker711 who wrote (40436 ) 8/28/2002 12:52:56 AM From: Bilow Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500 Hi slacker711; Re: "However, I think that there is a clear distinction between wars in which we have the choice to fight (for example, Panama and Gulf War I) and those which are thrust upon us. " I disagree. You always have the choice of whether or not to fight. Sometimes the alternative to fighting is surrender, or even death. But there is always an alternative, and that alternative should always, at least theoretically, be considered. As far as previous examples of wars that were "thrust upon us", I can think of no better example than Pearl Harbor. But the facts are that if Japan and Germany had had so much power that it was impossible that we could win that war, it would have been far better to have sued for peace instead of having our boys killed, our girls raped, and our country occupied and destroyed. The United States has never had to experience such a war. But many of our allies have. The French chose surrender over a similar fate in 1940. The Czechs saw the writing on the wall and gave Hitler what he wanted. Would they really have been better off by resisting? Of course not, all that would have happened was that they'd have been the first to go under. The Germans and Japanese eventually surrendered too. The facts are that if the French had known before WW2 that they were going to be crushed and occupied, I doubt they wouldn't have signed up to take a bullet for Poland. In the vast majority of the cases, it is not the objective of the enemy to kill, but instead to achieve some other objective, for example, to take control of a slice of territory (i.e. the Sudetenland). Many times those objectives are nationally important, but many times, especially in the cases where you have to debate over whether you should fight or not, they have nothing whatsoever to do with safety, security, or even the wealth of the country. In situations like that, it behooves us to think carefully about whether war is truly thrust upon us or not. So of course I don't think that Afghanistan was thrust upon us. As far as Afghanistan being a contradiction to the Powell doctrine, I don't think so for the following reasons: (1) Re: "War]should be undertaken only ... " Afghanistan was so weak that the number of soldiers required was very small. Hardly much of a war. (2) Re: "... in the presence of precise political and military goals. " Eliminate the Taliban, remove the sanctuary for Al Qaeda, establish a new government. (3) Re: "... with clear popular support from the American public and the Congress. " All those right wing Republicans and military types were in favor of action in Afghanistan (myself included). A good fraction of the Left was also in favor. Now the Right is split on Afghanistan, and the Left is either against it, or is sitting back and letting us duke it out. (4) Re: "There must be a clear exit strategy ... " With Afghanistan, the exit strategy was trivial. Try to rebuild the country into something less hospitable to anti-US terrorists, but in the worst case, if the going gets rough, then simply exit the country and treat them like Iraq. So far the worst case has not appeared, but even if it had, or if it appears in the future, the result would not have been a situation that was less conducive to US security than the situation that obtained before we attacked. That is, Afghanistan was a case that we could not possibly have screwed up the country more (damaging against us) than it was already screwed up (against us). That provided us with a simple exit strategy, one which was not widely discussed, but one which I wrote into SI at the time: "Hope for the best. Do good until it becomes painful, then get out". Iraq is different. Iraq is not (yet) a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, but it has some of the earmarks of that kind of problem. And with our allies in the region clearly against our going in (because of fear of their own stability), it is obvious that there is significant room for our making our security worse as a result of going into Iraq, as opposed to leaving the situation with containment. Re: "... and an unhesitating will to deploy overwhelming force. " We had this in Afghanistan. With Iraq, it's problematical, in that the administration seems to be looking for an easy way out. That's why the military is arguing for 250,000 man invasions, to make sure that there is overwhelming force deployed. By the way, wars where overwhelming force is not deployed tend to be the most bloody ones. Vietnam killed a hell of a lot more people (both ours, our allies, and the enemy's) than the Kuwaiti liberation did. -- Carl