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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (40883)	8/30/2002 12:18:01 AM
From: SirRealist	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>>But the benefits of a huge upheaval ushering in millions upon millions of people toward democratic rule<< Yup, that's a good argument. >>and free market capitalism are too great a benefit to ignore.<< Free market??!!! You found one???!!! I thought that was a myth, like 'bloodless Communism'. Personally, the ideology called capitalism is a bit overblown. It is wholly dependent on the character and culture of whoever's practicing it.

To: greenspirit who wrote (40883)	8/30/2002 12:40:16 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Respond to of 281500

<Most of the wonderful people in the Middle East yearn for the same freedom and liberty we've won. We need only break down the barriers standing in the way of their natural desire for freedom.> Michael, There are plenty of them here in Auckland and they seem to like it here. They are coming through the barriers faster than we can cope. They are filling Europe too. It's better to make things right where they come from than have an endless tide of refugees seeking freedom and prosperity, turning Auckland into Beirut and Kabul. Mqurice

To: greenspirit who wrote (40883)	8/30/2002 10:23:24 AM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

Contrary to some views, I believe If the U.S. military was as successful in Iraq as they were in Afghanistan to install a representative government under the protection of a multinational peace-keeping-force, the Mid-East would explode toward democratic forms of government in the next decade. The first part of that two part proposition is very much still in play. Some argue that only Kabul is reasonably safe at the moment and one can argue, vigorously with that, given the assassinations. It's a start but the road is very long and the US has not shown, particularly here, the commitment to keep traveling it. I don't like that but it is the case and it appears to be the continuing heart of American foreign policy. Short term definitions of self interest drive it. Unless it goes into war making mode. As for the second proposition, the purported democratic revolution in the ME, you best watch that you don't get what you wish for. For tangled historical reasons, and Nadine knows these much better than the rest of us, the most likely outcome of elections would be either military dictatorships who faked elections or Islamists who might decide that once in power they don't wish to let go. Robert Kaplan's work is extremely relevant here. Very unsettling arguments but the guy knows his stuff so to argue with him you have to do your homework. amazon.com President Bush is setting the stage, similar to what President Reagan did in the 80's in regard to communism, to dramatically turn back the tide of dictatorial rule, and move another billion people under the vision of democratic governance. It just continues to amaze me that these kinds of historical treatments don't include the absolute essential role of Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Without Gorbachev, there is literally no telling what would have happened but the odds that it would have been much more tragic, as bad as it was, are immense. And, ditto, however multisided the argument it would require, for Yeltsin.