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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: stockman_scott who wrote (43803)9/13/2002 9:57:17 PM
From: Win Smith  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
The more Bush talks, the more he gets tripped up with questions he can’t answer. So he suggests that anybody who disagrees with his strike-now-ask questions-later strategy is an appeaser. Likening the U.N.’s inability to enforce weapons inspections on Iraq to the failed League of Nations and the appeasement of Hitler is an argument designed to embarrass and humiliate the world body, not to shed light on a dangerous mission.

Hey, did the locals pick that up from W, or vice versa? I wonder if W is aware of Godwin's law, or if there has to be a new corollary for Presidential invocation?

wired.com ( disappointingly, www.godwinslaw.com doesn't work any more)



To: stockman_scott who wrote (43803)9/13/2002 10:00:21 PM
From: Bilow  Respond to of 281500
 
Hi stockman_scott; That was Newsweek??? Bush is in trouble.

Who stands where on Iraq?
Unlike the Gulf War, another full-scale U.S. attack on Iraq appears to lack the support of most Western allies and, more importantly, Iraq’s neighbors and key Arab states. Here’s how the key nations have lined up so far on the issue of a “regime change” in Baghdad.
...
But the Pentagon had also evolved a great deal over the same time frame, in ways that made it difficult for a hard-charging civilian outsider to take control. The top brass had been indelibly shaped by their grim experiences as junior officers in Vietnam. “They had seen men get killed stupidly, and they weren’t going to let it happen again,” says military historian Cohen. The uniformed military had taken over true control of the Pentagon from the nominal civilian leadership, the service secretaries. The last dominating, intrusive Defense secretary had been Robert McNamara back in the ’60s. ...
...

msnbc.com

I don't see how it's possible to believe that the United Nations will be convinced by Bush's latest speeches. They contained zero new information, and no real change in presentation. So what's the point?

-- Carl



To: stockman_scott who wrote (43803)9/14/2002 3:35:25 AM
From: frankw1900  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
How does this sentence:

BUSH SET NO deadline for the United Nations to act, which left lawmakers wondering whether he would simultaneously seek a resolution from Congress backing military action in Iraq, using one body as leverage on the other.

Connect to this one:

Bush went beyond calling for disarmament and inspection to invoke democracy and human values as future goals for Iraq.

And how does it connect to this one:

Since so few places in the Middle East subscribe to democratic values, a congressional aide thought the networks should pan to the Saudi delegation to see if they?re snickering.????

Logically, they don't. But let's suppose they're mini headlines introducing the rest of the piece. Next paragraph:

When it comes to the selective application of values, Bush is a master. His rhetoric about dictators and weapons of mass destruction is compelling, but what about Iran and North Korea, the other countries in his axis of evil?

Well, what about them? He should attack them all at once? Dilute his compellingness?

What about Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe and the way he terrorizes his people? What about India and Pakistan, who could blow up much of their region, along with themselves?

Mugabe's part of the world din't attack the WTC. India and Pakistan have almost rational people in charge and give US some access. It's a dangerous situation there and rather unclear to anyone exactly what can be done there that's useful. Pak is cooperating sort of, in the Afghan matter. Why should he attack them?

Even if Saddam Hussein is an evil psychopath, is he crazy enough to annihilate himself, which is what would happen if he launched deadly weapons?

At the end of WW2 quite a number of evil psychopaths killed themselves in the face of defeat. That is exactly the problem with Hussein - he is a psychopath and operates on whim. She is making the mistake of imagining he's a reasonable person when he operates on the same basis as late Ted Bundy. When he left Kuwait he fired up the oil fields not for tactical or strategic reasons - there were none - but out of spite.

Next paragraph:

The more Bush talks, the more he gets tripped up with questions he can?t answer.

Which are?

So he suggests that anybody who disagrees with his strike-now-ask questions-later strategy is an appeaser.

Defeating a dangerous enemy and then not enforcing the surrender terms could be construed as appeasement, I think. Something awfully like that anyway.

Likening the U.N.?s inability to enforce weapons inspections on Iraq to the failed League of Nations and the appeasement of Hitler is an argument designed to embarrass and humiliate the world body, not to shed light on a dangerous mission.

The UN doesn't have an inability - it just hasn't done so. Bush didn't say the UN has inability he said they haven't done so. This might be construed as an attempt to embarrass the UN if you think it has emotions - but it's a political institution, so it doesn't. It was attempt to get the members' attention to great likelihood it will become extremely irrelevant if it doesn't enforce resolutions with respect to countries it's been at war with. The resolutions regarding Iraq were neither unreasonable nor unjust but Saddam gave it the middle digit.

"?shed light on a dangerous mission." Bush doesn't have to do that for the UN, he has to do it for the American people.

?Bush needs to make a very precise case for pre-emptive military action,? says a Reagan-era ambassador to the region. ?Otherwise this is the Vietnam syndrome all over again. I thought never again would we fight a war without the support of the American public.?

She did the cut and paste here. This person is talking about the US not the UN. So far about 60% of the US folk appear in support of US action against Saddam, particularly if the action is sanctioned by the UN.

The rest of the article is equally wretched and I won't do it all line by line but the following is truly outrageously stupid:

That brings us to the ultimate question: Why would Bush take such a huge risk with the military, the economy and the map of the Middle East?

On Sept 9, 2001, there was an attack originating in the Middle East on the US leading city and it's military headquarters. It appears very clear now that fundamental conditions in the ME will not change out of internal developments in a way which makes it less likely that such attacks will not be repeated. Therefore it's necessary for outsiders to change conditions there.

Espousing democracy and human values in the ME is tantamount to US announcing a state of undeclared war against the governments of the area and it's definitely and effort to change conditions in the area. (I'm sure the Saudi delegation didn't snicker, they more likely blinked or blanched). This was just as important as calling the UN to attention.

This is not rocket science. Clift could have argued that changing the government in Iraq is not the right way to change conditions in the ME, but instead descends to psychobabble:

A psychiatrist might be best equipped to answer that one?.. And even though he was draft-age during the Vietnam War and in an academic environment where people were protesting, he seems remarkably untouched by the Vietnam experience. It?s as though he slept through that period, or wasn?t mature enough to grasp the enormity of the nation?s disillusionment with its leaders.

Perhaps he didn't agree with protestors, perhaps he was partying. It doesn't matter though because it's not 1968 and Americans certainly aren't that disillusioned with him. He's certainly more attractive than Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan or his dad. He's not as good a political operator as Clinton, but then he's not diddling in the Oval office and getting himself impeached, either.

Bush approaches foreign policy as he approaches life, with a very narrow, Reaganesque view that something is either right or wrong.

Seemed to serve Reagan quite well.

But prosecuting a global war against terror is filled with moral ambiguities, shifting alliances and cold-eyed tradeoffs of risk and reward.

Just like the Cold War. Eisenhower, Dulles and Reagan managed just fine with the black and white view.

Bush doesn?t want to be deterred by theoretical scenarios about how a good mission can turn bad.

Evidence, so far, doesn't support this view. He seems remarkably cautious and thorough.

At consults with other leaders, he would be wise to at least maintain the fiction that he is feeling their pain even if he is only going through the motions.

Lord, heavens above! She wants him to be nice! The leader of the super power has to be strong and smart. That's what the leaders of non-joke countries expect and desire.

The woman is a twit. A hand wringing twit. A disgrace to journalism and the liberal cause.

I think you should post better stuff or bog off.