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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (58804)	9/18/2002 7:13:04 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Well based on that view anyone has the right to claim ministerial authority simply by holding the view point whether or not they are a Quaker. I remember asking CH if that was his position at the time. He prefered to challenge his accusers to prove the IHub ID belonged to him. It kind of cast some doubt on his credibility when they did.

To: epicure who wrote (58804)	9/18/2002 7:30:09 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

The issue of Quaker ministry is complicated. I can't get into it all here, but basically, as a result of schism and unschisms, there are two main threads of Quakerism with multiple sub-threads. Originally, all Quaker worship was unprogrammed, and, as the post says, a meeting could recognize one or more men or women (from the very beginning, Quakers gave women full rights in Meeting) as ministers. But this didn't give them any structural authority within the meeting, since all decisions were made by consensus. Nor were they paid, though they might be given funds to assist them in travelling in the ministry. Rather, it was a mark of recognition that the person spoke with particular power and authority, and told other meetings the person visited that this was a person worth listening to, in the opinion of the home meeting.. During the US westward expansion, particularly into Western NY, Indiana and Ohio, the Quakers usually set up the first houses of worship, because not having paid ministers all they needed was a place to meet. The build simple meeting houses. As other people came along, they joined the meeting as the only available place to worship. But from their perspective, they were used to a paid ministry and programmed service with hymns, etc., and found the unprogrammed worship unsatisfying and hard to adapt to. And on their side, the Quakers were concerned that too many non-Quakers attending the meeting diluted the Quaker message. So for these and other reasons, gradually these Meetings morphed into programmed meetings with paid ministers. Today, programmed worship is common in the midwest, in some parts of the West, and in Africa. There is almost no programmed worship in England, in the Eastern US, and in Europe. That's a very simplistic discussion, and any Quaker historian would poke multiple holes in it -- as I would if I had the time and inclination. But it will do for a start. Among the unprogrammed meetings, some still name ministers, some don't. The one I grew up in didn't.