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Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Mannie who wrote (6949)9/21/2002 5:02:19 AM
From: jjkirk  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 89467
 
Scott,

I am obliged to step in here, since my superogatory statement of my opinion that Stockman Scott should "get a life" prompted these exchanges. While I apologized to you, Scott, and to SS for my ungentlemanly statement, I do not apologize for exercising my Constitutional right to voice an opinion that may be at variance with others. No one should mistake my practice of that right for an attempt to limit or stifle their own wholehearted espousal of contrary beliefs. I offer the following to support these views:

If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought--not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate. [Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., 1929]

He who endeavors to control the mind by force is a tyrant, and he who submits is a slave. [Robert G. Ingersoll, 1906]

Neither you, nor I, nor SS aspire to be a tyrant or a slave. My opinion was not expressed for that purpose. My pique with SS is that in his seemingly manic obsession to post, he ignores the social obligation to defend the contents of those posts. This apparent lack of concern for intellectual honesty while bloating the thread was at the root of my comment.

However, I respect the rights of SS to ignore me or state an opinion at variance with mine. Each of us retains the intellectual freedom, yea the right to examine and re-examine that which has been taken for granted. Without the ability to reason and defend one's views, one's freedoms are limited, just as my inability to drive a car would limit my freedom to do so. In stating my opinion, I did not infringe on SS's right to his own. You took offense at my comment. I respect you, Scott. Therefore, as a gentleman, I conceded that I did not need to make that comment.

Intolerance has been defined as being unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression. Did the statement of my opinion constitute intolerance? IMHO, we have an injudicious overapplication of the word "intolerance" without a contemplative understanding of the dynamics of the word. I like Laurence J. Peters enlightening comment, I hate people who are intolerant. In this short sentence, he reminds us that one who lays the charge of intolerance on his neighbor's doorstep returns home to find the carcass of intolerance rotting at his own doorpost. The charge of intolerance is a handy weapon in this politically correct time. In our emotion, we may ignore the full meaning of this inflammatory term, perhaps overlooking the finer point that the statement of an opinion or criticism about the habits of another are not prima facie evidence of intolerance, unless accompanied by an intellectually dishonest attempt to stifle that persons freedom to defend himself.

Time to turn in, Scott. Please continue to reason with me. I always enjoy these discussions.....'nite...jj



To: Mannie who wrote (6949)9/21/2002 8:26:22 AM
From: stockman_scott  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
How the U.S. Helped Create Saddam Hussein

By Christopher Dickey and Evan Thomas
Newsweek | MSNBC.com

America helped make a monster. What to do with him-and what
happens after he's gone-has haunted us for a quarter century.

Week of September 23, 2002

The last time Donald Rumsfeld saw Saddam Hussein, he gave him a cordial handshake. The date was almost 20 years ago, Dec. 20, 1983; an official Iraqi television crew recorded the historic moment.

The once and future Defense secretary, at the time a private citizen, had been sent by President Ronald Reagan to Baghdad as a special envoy. Saddam Hussein, armed with a pistol on his hip, seemed "vigorous and confident," according to a now declassified State Department cable obtained by NEWSWEEK. Rumsfeld "conveyed the President's greetings and expressed his pleasure at being in Baghdad," wrote the notetaker. Then the two men got down to business, talking about the need to improve relations between their two countries.

Like most foreign-policy insiders, Rumsfeld was aware that Saddam was a murderous thug who supported terrorists and was trying to build a nuclear weapon. (The Israelis had already bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osirak.) But at the time, America's big worry was Iran, not Iraq. The Reagan administration feared that the Iranian revolutionaries who had overthrown the shah (and taken hostage American diplomats for 444 days in 1979-81) would overrun the Middle East and its vital oilfields. On the-theory that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, the Reaganites were seeking to support Iraq in a long and bloody war against Iran. The meeting between Rumsfeld and Saddam was consequential: for the next five years, until Iran finally capitulated, the United States backed Saddam's armies with military intelligence, economic aid and covert supplies of munitions.

FORMER ALLIES

Rumsfeld is not the first American diplomat to wish for the demise of a former ally. After all, before the cold war, the Soviet Union was America's partner against Hitler in World War II. In the real world, as the saying goes, nations have no permanent friends, just permanent interests. Nonetheless, Rumsfeld's long-ago interlude with Saddam is a reminder that today's friend can be tomorrow's mortal threat. As President George W. Bush and his war cabinet ponder Saddam's successor's regime, they would do well to contemplate how and why the last three presidents allowed the Butcher of Baghdad to stay in power so long.

The history of America's relations with Saddam is one of the sorrier tales in American foreign policy. Time and again, America turned a blind eye to Saddam's predations, saw him as the lesser evil or flinched at the chance to unseat him. No single policymaker or administration deserves blame for creating, or at least tolerating, a monster; many of their decisions seemed reasonable at the time. Even so, there are moments in this clumsy dance with the Devil that make one cringe. It is hard to believe that, during most of the 1980s, America knowingly permitted the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission to import bacterial cultures that might be used to build biological weapons. But it happened.

America's past stumbles, while embarrassing, are not an argument for inaction in the future. Saddam probably is the "grave and gathering danger" described by President Bush in his speech to the United Nations last week. It may also be true that "whoever replaces Saddam is not going to be worse," as a senior administration official put it to NEWSWEEK. But the story of how America helped create a Frankenstein monster it now wishes to strangle is sobering. It illustrates the power of wishful thinking, as well as the iron law of unintended consequences.

TRANSFIXED BY SADDAM

America did not put Saddam in power. He emerged after two decades of turmoil in the '60s and '70s, as various strongmen tried to gain control of a nation that had been concocted by British imperialists in the 1920s out of three distinct and rival factions, the Sunnis, Shiites and the Kurds. But during the cold war, America competed with the Soviets for Saddam's attention and welcomed his war with the religious fanatics of Iran. Having cozied up to Saddam, Washington found it hard to break away-even after going to war with him in 1991. Through years of both tacit and overt support, the West helped create the Saddam of today, giving him time to build deadly arsenals and dominate his people. Successive administrations always worried that if Saddam fell, chaos would follow, rippling through the region and possibly igniting another Middle East war. At times it seemed that Washington was transfixed by Saddam.

The Bush administration wants to finally break the spell. If the administration's true believers are right, Baghdad after Saddam falls will look something like Paris after the Germans fled in August 1944. American troops will be cheered as liberators, and democracy will spread forth and push Middle Eastern despotism back into the shadows. Yet if the gloomy predictions of the administration's many critics come true, the Arab street, inflamed by Yankee imperialism, will rise up and replace the shaky but friendly autocrats in the region with Islamic fanatics.

While the Middle East is unlikely to become a democratic nirvana, the worst-case scenarios, always a staple of the press, are probably also wrong or exaggerated. Assuming that a cornered and doomed Saddam does not kill thousands of Americans in some kind of horrific Gotterdmmerung-a scary possibility, one that deeply worries administration officials-the greatest risk of his fall is that one strongman may simply be replaced by another. Saddam's successor may not be a paranoid sadist. But there is no assurance that he will be America's friend or forswear the development of weapons of mass destruction.

A TASTE FOR NASTY WEAPONS

American officials have known that Saddam was a psychopath ever since he became the country's de facto ruler in the early 1970s. One of Saddam's early acts after he took the title of president in 1979 was to videotape a session of his party's congress, during which he personally ordered several members executed on the spot. The message, carefully conveyed to the Arab press, was not that these men were executed for plotting against Saddam, but rather for thinking about plotting against him. From the beginning, U.S. officials worried about Saddam's taste for nasty weaponry; indeed, at their meeting in 1983, Rumsfeld warned that Saddam's use of chemical weapons might "inhibit" American assistance. But top officials in the Reagan administration saw Saddam as a useful surrogate. By going to war with Iran, he could bleed the radical mullahs who had seized control of Iran from the pro-American shah. Some Reagan officials even saw Saddam as another Anwar Sadat, capable of making Iraq into a modern secular state, just as Sadat had tried to lift up Egypt before his assassination in 1981.

But Saddam had to be rescued first. The war against Iran was going badly by 1982. Iran's "human wave attacks" threatened to overrun Saddam's armies. Washington decided to give Iraq a helping hand. After Rumsfeld's visit to Baghdad in 1983, U.S. intelligence began supplying the Iraqi dictator with satellite photos showing Iranian deployments. Official documents suggest that America may also have secretly arranged for tanks and other military hardware to be shipped to Iraq in a swap deal-American tanks to Egypt, Egyptian tanks to Iraq. Over the protest of some Pentagon skeptics, the Reagan administration began allowing the Iraqis to buy a wide variety of "dual use" equipment and materials from American suppliers. According to confidential Commerce Department export-control documents obtained by NEWSWEEK, the shopping list included a computerized database for Saddam's Interior Ministry (presumably to help keep track of political opponents); helicopters to transport Iraqi officials; television cameras for "video surveillance applications"; chemical-analysis equipment for the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC), and, most unsettling, numerous shipments of "bacteria/fungi/protozoa" to the IAEC. According to former officials, the bacteria cultures could be used to make biological weapons, including anthrax. The State Department also approved the shipment of 1.5 million atropine injectors, for use against the effects of chemical weapons, but the Pentagon blocked the sale. The helicopters, some American officials later surmised, were used to spray poison gas on the Kurds.

'WHO IS GOING TO SAY ANYTHING?'

The United States almost certainly knew from its own satellite imagery that Saddam was using chemical weapons against Iranian troops. When Saddam bombed Kurdish rebels and civilians with a lethal cocktail of mustard gas, sarin, tabun and VX in 1988, the Reagan administration first blamed Iran, before acknowledging, under pressure from congressional Democrats, that the culprits were Saddam's own forces. There was only token official protest at the time. Saddam's men were unfazed. An Iraqi audiotape, later captured by the Kurds, records Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid (known as Ali Chemical) talking to his fellow officers about gassing the Kurds. "Who is going to say anything?" he asks. "The international community? F-k them!"

The United States was much more concerned with protecting Iraqi oil from attacks by Iran as it was shipped through the Persian Gulf. In 1987, an Iraqi Exocet missile hit an American destroyer, the USS Stark, in the Persian Gulf, killing 37 crewmen. Incredibly, the United States excused Iraq for making an unintentional mistake and instead used the incident to accuse Iran of escalating the war in the gulf. The American tilt to Iraq became more pronounced. U.S. commandos began blowing up Iranian oil platforms and attacking Iranian patrol boats. In 1988, an American warship in the gulf accidentally shot down an Iranian Airbus, killing 290 civilians. Within a few weeks, Iran, exhausted and fearing American intervention, gave up its war with Iraq.

Saddam was feeling cocky. With the support of the West, he had defeated the Islamic revolutionaries in Iran. America favored him as a regional pillar; European and American corporations were vying for contracts with Iraq. He was visited by congressional delegations led by Sens. Bob Dole of Kansas and Alan Simpson of Wyoming, who were eager to promote American farm and business interests. But Saddam's megalomania was on the rise, and he overplayed his hand. In 1990, a U.S. Customs sting operation snared several Iraqi agents who were trying to buy electronic equipment used to make triggers for nuclear bombs. Not long after, Saddam gained the world's attention by threatening "to burn Israel to the ground." At the Pentagon, analysts began to warn that Saddam was a growing menace, especially after he tried to buy some American-made high-tech furnaces useful for making nuclear-bomb parts. Yet other officials in Congress and in the Bush administration continued to see him as a useful, if distasteful, regional strongman. The State Department was equivocating with Saddam right up to the moment he invaded Kuwait in August 1990.

AMBIVALENT ABOUT SADDAM'S FATE

Some American diplomats suggest that Saddam might have gotten away with invading Kuwait if he had not been quite so greedy. "If he had pulled back to the Mutla Ridge [overlooking Kuwait City], he'd still be there today," one ex-ambassador told NEWSWEEK. And even though President George H.W. Bush compared Saddam to Hitler and sent a half-million-man Army to drive him from Kuwait, Washington remained ambivalent about Saddam's fate. It was widely assumed by policymakers that Saddam would collapse after his defeat in Desert Storm, done in by his humiliated officer corps or overthrown by the revolt of a restive minority population. But Washington did not want to push very hard to topple Saddam. The gulf war, Bush I administration officials pointed out, had been fought to liberate Kuwait, not oust Saddam. "I am certain that had we taken all of Iraq, we would have been like the dinosaur in the tar pit-we would still be there," wrote the American commander in Desert Storm, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, in his memoirs. America's allies in the region, most prominently Saudi Arabia, feared that a post-Saddam Iraq would splinter and destabilize the region. The Shiites in the south might bond with their fellow religionists in Iran, strengthening the Shiite mullahs, and threatening the Saudi border. In the north, the Kurds were agitating to break off parts of Iraq and Turkey to create a Kurdistan. So Saddam was allowed to keep his tanks and helicopters-which he used to crush both Shiite and Kurdish rebellions.

The Bush administration played down Saddam's darkness after the gulf war. Pentagon bureaucrats compiled dossiers to support a war-crimes prosecution of Saddam, especially for his sordid treatment of POWs. They documented police stations and "sports facilities" where Saddam's henchmen used acid baths and electric drills on their victims. One document suggested that torture should be "artistic." But top Defense Department officials stamped the report secret. One Bush administration official subsequently told The Washington Post, "Some people were concerned that if we released it during the [1992 presidential] campaign, people would say, 'Why don't you bring this guy to justice?' " (Defense Department aides say politics played no part in the report.)

The Clinton administration was no more aggressive toward Saddam. In 1993, Saddam apparently hired some Kuwaiti liquor smugglers to try to assassinate former president Bush as he took a victory lap through the region. According to one former U.S. ambassador, the new administration was less than eager to see an open-and-shut case against Saddam, for fear that it would demand aggressive retaliation. When American intelligence continued to point to Saddam's role, the Clintonites lobbed a few cruise missiles into Baghdad. The attack reportedly killed one of Saddam's mistresses, but left the dictator defiant.

CLINTON-ERA COVERT ACTIONS

The American intelligence community, under orders from President Bill Clinton, did mount covert actions aimed at toppling Saddam in the 1990s, but by most accounts they were badly organized and halfhearted. In the north, CIA operatives supported a Kurdish rebellion against Saddam in 1995. According to the CIA's man on the scene, former case officer Robert Baer, Clinton administration officials back in Washington "pulled the plug" on the operation just as it was gathering momentum. The reasons have long remained murky, but according to Baer, Washington was never sure that Saddam's successor would be an improvement, or that Iraq wouldn't simply collapse into chaos.

"The question we could never answer," Baer told NEWSWEEK, "was, 'After Saddam goes, then what?' " A coup attempt by Iraqi Army officers fizzled the next year. Saddam brutally rolled up the plotters. The CIA operatives pulled out, rescuing everyone they could, and sending them to Guam.

Meanwhile, Saddam was playing cat-and-mouse with weapons of mass destruction. As part of the settlement imposed by America and its allies at the end of the gulf war, Saddam was supposed to get rid of his existing stockpiles of chem-bio weapons, and to allow in inspectors to make sure none were being hidden or secretly manufactured. The U.N. inspectors did shut down his efforts to build a nuclear weapon. But Saddam continued to secretly work on his germ- and chemical-warfare program. When the inspectors first suspected what Saddam was trying to hide in 1995, Saddam's son-in-law, Hussein Kamel, suddenly fled Iraq to Jordan. Kamel had overseen Saddam's chem-bio program, and his defection forced the revelation of some of the secret locations of Saddam's deadly labs. That evidence is the heart of the "white paper" used last week by President Bush to support his argument that Iraq has been defying U.N. resolutions for the past decade. (Kamel had the bad judgment to return to Iraq, where he was promptly executed, along with various family members.)

By now aware of the scale of Saddam's efforts to deceive, the U.N. arms inspectors were unable to certify that Saddam was no longer making weapons of mass destruction. Without this guarantee, the United Nations was unwilling to lift the economic sanctions imposed after the gulf war. Saddam continued to play "cheat and retreat" with -the inspectors, forcing a showdown in December 1998. The United Nations pulled out its inspectors, and the United States and Britain launched Operation Desert Fox, four days of bombing that was supposed to teach Saddam a lesson and force his compliance.

Saddam thumbed his nose. The United States and its allies, in effect, shrugged and walked away. While the U.N. sanctions regime gradually eroded, allowing Saddam to trade easily on the black market, he was free to brew all the chem-bio weapons he wanted. Making a nuclear weapon is harder, and intelligence officials still believe he is a few years away from even regaining the capacity to manufacture enriched uranium to build his own bomb. If he can steal or buy ready-made fissile material, say from the Russian mafia, he could probably make a nuclear weapon in a matter of months, though it would be so large that delivery would pose a challenge.

LASHING OUT?

As the Bush administration prepares to oust Saddam, one way or another, senior administration officials are very worried that Saddam will try to use his WMD arsenal. Intelligence experts have warned that Saddam may be "flushing" his small, easy-to-conceal biological agents, trying to get them out of the country before an American invasion. A vial of bugs or toxins that could kill thousands could fit in a suitcase-or a diplomatic pouch. There are any number of grim end-game scenarios. Saddam could try blackmail, threatening to unleash smallpox or some other grotesque virus in an American city if U.S. forces invaded. Or, like a cornered dog, he could lash out in a final spasm of violence, raining chemical weapons down on U.S. troops, handing out his bioweapons to terrorists. "That's the single biggest worry in all this," says a senior administration official. "We are spending a lot of time on this," said another top official.

Some administration critics have said, in effect, let sleeping dogs lie. Don't provoke Saddam by threatening his life; there is no evidence that he has the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction. Countered White House national-security adviser Condoleezza Rice, "Do we wait until he's better at it?" Several administration officials indicated that an intense effort is underway, covert as well as overt, to warn Saddam's lieutenants to save themselves by breaking from the dictator before it's too late. "Don't be the fool who follows the last order" is the way one senior administration official puts it.

The risk is that some will choose to go down with Saddam, knowing that they stand to be hanged by an angry mob after the dictator falls. It is unclear what kind of justice would follow his fall, aside from summary hangings from the nearest lamppost.

POST-SADDAM IRAQ

The Bush administration is determined not to "overthrow one strongman only to install another," a senior administration official told NEWSWEEK. This official said that the president has made clear that he wants to press for democratic institutions, government accountability and the rule of law in post-Saddam Iraq. But no one really knows how that can be achieved. Bush's advisers are counting on the Iraqis themselves to resist a return to despotism. "People subject to horrible tyranny have strong antibodies to anyone who wants to put them back under tyranny," says a senior administration official. But as another official acknowledged, "a substantial American commitment" to Iraq is inevitable.

At what cost? And who pays? Will other nations chip in money and men? It is not clear how many occupation troops will be required to maintain order, or for how long. Much depends on the manner of Saddam's exit: whether the Iraqis drive him out themselves, or rely heavily on U.S. power. Administration officials shy away from timetables and specifics but say they have to be prepared for all contingencies. "As General Eisenhower said, 'Every plan gets thrown out on the first day of battle. Plans are useless. Planning is everything'," said Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby.

It is far from clear that America will be able to control the next leader of Iraq, even if he is not as diabolical as Saddam. Any leader of Iraq will look around him and see that Israel and Pakistan have nuclear weapons and that Iran may soon. Just as England and France opted to build their own bombs in the cold war, and not depend on the U.S. nuclear umbrella, the next president of Iraq may want to have his own bomb. "He may want to, but he can't be allowed to," says a Bush official. But what is to guarantee that a newly rich Iraqi strongman won't buy one with his nation's vast oil wealth? In some ways, Iraq is to the Middle East as Germany was to Europe in the 20th century, too large, too militaristic and too competent to coexist peaceably with neighbors. It took two world wars and millions of lives to solve "the German problem." Getting rid of Saddam may be essential to creating a stable, democratic Iraq. But it may be only a first step on a long and dangerous march.

truthout.org



To: Mannie who wrote (6949)9/21/2002 2:28:43 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
Why are we going to war in Iraq?

Joe Conason's Journal
Salon Premium
Sept. 20, 2002
salon.com

The question that tore America apart long after Congress passed the seemingly innocuous Tonkin Gulf resolution -– What is the purpose of this bloody conflict? -– must be answered now about the Bush administration's rapid drive toward war in Iraq. At the risk of alienating those on both sides of the debate, I have to say that so far, only a single convincing rationale for the president's policy has been argued.

It isn't to secure oil, although Baghdad does control the second-richest proven petroleum reserves in the world. Saddam Hussein has been perfectly willing to sell his country's oil, and permit development of those reserves, for decades. And until he misunderstood that strange message from the first President Bush's ambassador in 1990, and decided to invade Kuwait, American policymakers and industrial leaders like Donald Rumsfeld and Henry Kissinger were perfectly willing to do business with him. (Which also suggests, despite all the recent manufactured angst in Washington, that his gassing of the Kurds and Iranians during the 1980s is also not the reason for our elites' hostility toward his regime.)

It isn't to stop aggression, because Saddam has remained inside his box for a decade, since the end of the Gulf War. (Back then I supported Desert Storm as an unavoidable international response to Saddam's violation of a United Nations member state's sovereignty. Many aspects of that war and the propaganda surrounding it were, however, repugnant.) Baghdad's neighbors fear the consequences of an American invasion far more than they fear Saddam, his weakened army or his depleted arsenal of chemical and biological weapons.

It isn't because he's really Hitler. As tensions grow, far-fetched historical analogies are being tossed around. That German minister's remarks comparing Bush to the Nazi dictator were vile and stupid -- but for all his brutal criminality and national-socialistic ideology, Saddam isn't quite Hitler either. He lacks the Nazi dictator's methods and ambitions, not to mention his means. Postwar Iraq hardly resembles prewar Germany. By the time the United States entered the war against the Axis, Hitler's war machine had been conquering Europe for five years.

It isn't to boost war profiteering. Under Bush the Pentagon budget is to be set on maximum bloat anyway, with "missile defense" slated to enrich Republican contributors and impoverish the rest of us. Military "reform" plus "homeland security" offer plenty of opportunities for conservative-style waste, fraud and abuse. The Carlyle Group, Halliburton and the rest of the Bush-Cheney industrial complex will do fine without blowing $200 million in another desert war

It certainly isn't to prevent proliferation of chemical and biological weapons. As the Washington Post reported yesterday, current U.S. policy is actually designed to thwart completion of a new international regime against biological weapons. The Bush hawks aren't too keen on multilateral action to prevent proliferation of chemical weapons, and they've been slow to deal with the truly mind-boggling problem of unsecured and stray fissile material in the former Soviet states. If these issues were keeping Dick Cheney and Richard Perle awake at night, American policy would be quite different.

The recent International Institute for Strategic Studies report often quoted to justify immediate intervention is a fairly measured assessment of the situation. Among its findings are that "Iraq has probably retained a small force of about a dozen 650km range al-Husseinmissiles. These could strike Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran and Kuwait [and could] be armed with [chemical or biological] warheads ... Iraq does not possess facilities to produce long range missiles and it would require several years and extensive foreign assistance to construct such facilities." Are we going to war to take out 12 medium-range missiles?

It isn't even to keep Saddam from going nuclear. The IISS report found that "Iraq does not possess facilities to produce fissile material in sufficient amounts for nuclear weapons. It would require several years and extensive foreign assistance to build such fissile material production facilities." Only if Iraq managed to obtain a sufficient amount of black-market weapons-grade uranium could a bomb conceivably be constructed. Saddam has been trying to do exactly that for 12 years without success.

According to the best estimates, Iran's nuclear program is more threatening, and North Korea's missile program is much more advanced -- yet there seems to be no immediate imperative for "regime change" in those countries.

Nobody believes Iraq can build an atomic bomb, or construct a long-range ballistic missile, between now and Election Day. That leaves us with the last, most plausible reason for the Bush team's sudden decision to press for war: because it is the best way to mobilize public opinion behind the president and his domestic political objectives, notably preserving his party's strength on Capitol Hill.

The Democrats may lack the courage to say this, but they know that it's true. The world may someday have ample reason to overthrow Saddam violently, and that day may come soon. But for now, the partisan stampede toward war ought to be resisted in favor of a strong new inspection
regime backed by force. [1:52 p.m. PDT, Sept. 20, 2002]



To: Mannie who wrote (6949)9/21/2002 7:18:09 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
Minnesota Governor Ventura at a college with Chris Matthews the other day told the audience he thought that 'if the sons of the suits in Washington were eligible to go to war, there wouldn't be any war'...

He got a rousing applause.

Ventura also feels that if there is a draft, there should be NO deferrments.

He got applause for that too, and this from students and self-styled intellectuals who would otherwise get deferrments.

What people in this country see as lacking in Washington is honesty.



To: Mannie who wrote (6949)9/22/2002 4:39:27 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
The End of Deterrence

The concept of mutually assured destruction kept the peace for 40 years. Now what?

By MITCHELL KOSS
Editorial
The Los Angeles Times
September 22, 2002

Our country has seemed pretty belligerent this year. President Bush decreed an "axis of evil." He loudly pronounced America's right to bomb preemptively anywhere, anytime, if it's in our interest. And his escalating rhetoric about a U.S. attack on Iraq hasn't ebbed one bit since Saddam Hussein began saying he'd allow weapons inspectors in.

Perhaps fittingly, as I drink my coffee out on the patio and contemplate these events, I am sitting over a '50s-era bomb shelter, a multiroom reinforced concrete labyrinth with vents and hatches that sits under half of my backyard, a testament to the Cold War fears--and the wallet--of my home's original owner.

In a way, the country's tough new posture doesn't strike me as news. Rather, it seems a natural progression of the last dozen years as we've drifted away from the doctrines of the Cold War into unfamiliar strategic territory. The old doctrines scared some people enough to build bomb shelters. But they were at least widely discussed, which made our government's actions understandable, if not universally accepted.

Now the president tells us we are abandoning the doctrine of deterrence. This is happening without public dialogue. Part of this is a practical problem driven home by the sudden need to deal with the attacks of Sept. 11. How do we apply deterrence to a group like Al Qaeda, which has no geography to retaliate against? Part of it is more elusive. Why doesn't deterrence, a doctrine we were comfortable applying against the Soviet Union, and currently apply against China, not apply to Iran, Iraq and North Korea, the three nations in our president's axis?

In the history of recent centuries, deterrence was a novel concept. Up until the last half-century, almost every new weapon that was developed was tried out. For that matter, so were nuclear weapons. We were willing to use them--against Japan, with horrifying consequences--so long as there was no other nation that could use them to retaliate against us.

But once the Soviet Union broke our monopoly in 1949, the concept changed. Nuclear weapons were then useful more for the threat that they posed. With the possibility of Armageddon hanging, both the Soviet Union and the United States more or less restrained themselves. And we citizens didn't have to think all that much about the abstract threat of near-instantaneous annihilation. Those who just couldn't put it out of their minds built bomb shelters, like the one under my backyard.

When President Reagan proposed his Star Wars defense against Soviet nuclear weapons, it divided the public. People like me were against it because we thought it couldn't actually stop hundreds of Soviet missiles. But many people were relieved to hear a proposed alternative--however unrealistic--to the inherently ghastly doctrine of mutually assured destruction.

The world was changing. In March 1989, while on assignment for PBS' "MacNeil/Lehrer News- Hour," I stood on the steps of Magyar Televizio in Budapest as 100,000 protesters surrounded it with a list of demands for more democracy--demands that Hungary's then-communist government allowed to be broadcast that evening. It seemed inevitable to me then that the world would soon be a very different place. Eight months later, the Berlin Wall came down.

That summer I was hired by an august science documentary series to produce an hour on high-tech U.S. weaponry. It was partly to be a kind of pornography for nerds, with lots of things flying around blowing up stuff. For journalistic seriousness, there would be a question: Can we really control these weapons?

Yet as I researched the film, it seemed to me a bigger issue was at stake. Like our nuclear forces, these high-tech weapons--designed to defend West Germany from invasion by the Warsaw Pact--were never intended for use. NATO's Follow-on Forces Attack doctrine held that these weapons would answer any invasion by attacking deep behind front lines with so-called smart conventional weapons. But in the casualty-averse 1980s, the emphasis was not on fighting but on scaring off any attack.

Then events overtook us again. Iraq invaded Kuwait. The whole world got a look at how well American high-tech weapons worked. It also got a look at the U.S. fear of casualties, when U.S. forces stopped short of a potentially bloody battle to capture Baghdad and topple Saddam Hussein--a mission that this year suddenly seems to have priority. The year of the Gulf War ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

But many people in the so-called military industrial complex were strangely pensive in their moment of seeming triumph. I remember having brunch with a source, a nuclear weapons scientist, in Washington during the winter of 1992. He said to me: "Everyone criticizes nuclear weapons, Mitch. But I love nuclear weapons. They kept the peace in Europe for 40 years. Now what?"

As those of us who covered such issues in the early and mid-'90s soon found out, the fear was that nuclear materials were leaking out of the former Soviet Union to nations against whom deterrence might not work. "We call them the Crazy Seven," my source told me, implying U.S. policymakers feared that leaders in these nations were too irrational to be deterred. In March 1994, the North Korean nuclear crisis broke when the Clinton administration could no longer ignore the possibility that North Korea was manufacturing nuclear weapons--or according to some in the CIA, had already made them.

Proliferation created a brief boom in plot lines for cheesy Tom Clancy-style action pictures. But there was little serious discussion about how we should proceed in this dramatically changed world. The abstract danger that the world would be destroyed in a nuclear Armageddon had been replaced by the more easily imagined likelihood that one or two bombs would eventually go off somewhere. And if the nations trying to get these weapons were deemed too irrational or unstable for deterrence to apply to them, then they had to be stopped. The problem was how, because the logical alternative to deterrence is fighting.

What kept things in check at first was fear of casualties. At the end of his administration, the first President Bush sent U.S. troops to Somalia. President Clinton pulled them out when 18 were killed in one day. And that set the tone of the decade: The U.S. military could be used anywhere in the world on any sort of assignment--unless it would result in American casualties.

Against this backdrop, in a late-'90s world where India and Pakistan were testing nuclear weapons and North Korea was sending test missiles over Japan, Star Wars came back as National Missile Defense. But defense was only half the response to our undeclared abandonment of deterrence. The other part, offense, was still held in check by U.S. policymakers--as evidenced in the 77-day war in Kosovo, fought by announcing in advance that U.S. casualties were unacceptable. Opinion polls showed that the administration seemed to fear casualties more than the public did.

In February 2001, a colleague and I were invited to the classified side of the Department of Energy to address a national security panel on the topic "Public Perceptions of Deterrence." The assembled generals and admirals and nuclear weapons physicists wanted to know from us why the media were not covering the great strategic changes underway. Where was the public debate, or even consciousness of what was happening?

We told the generals and physicists that if they wanted more press coverage, some of them would have to publicly speak about what was going on. But, as it turned out, we were again overtaken by events.

Whether or not Sept. 11 changed the public's tolerance for American military casualties, it changed politicians' perceptions of that tolerance. With the fear gone, and no commonly accepted alternative to deterrence in place, the natural drift is to attack. And that's the direction that the talk, at least, has been heading, with Bush stating that we must "be ready for preemptive action when necessary."

That's a pretty definitive renunciation of deterrence. And although it had been discussed around the policy table for more than a decade, it caught most of us by surprise--which is the most troubling aspect of it, given that in our society major issues are supposed to be widely discussed. It's easy to blame the media for this omission. After all, an interview with Defense Policy Board Chairman Richard N. Perle, lead theorist of the "no deterrence" doctrine, doesn't easily fit into a Barbara Walters pre-Oscar special. But finally, it's up to all of us. Do we agree that preemptive attacks are the best way to deal with the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction?

Whether this new approach will have wider success isn't yet knowable. It is a doctrine, after all--an article of faith. We may have good reasons for what we decide to commonly believe, but in the end it cannot be proved. Previously, under deterrence, and so far, in this new place beyond deterrence, no nuclear weapons have been used against people. With luck, whatever doctrine we settle on, my bomb shelter won't be much help to anyone.
__________________________________________________
Mitchell Koss is a producer for Channel One News. His work has appeared on PBS, ABC and MTV.

latimes.com



To: Mannie who wrote (6949)9/22/2002 9:39:50 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
Gulf War general says Iraq invasion 'totally unjustified'

By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 22/09/2002)
telegraph.co.uk

The officer who commanded the British 7th Armoured Brigade in the Gulf War has revealed that he is strongly opposed to a military invasion of Iraq.

Maj Gen Patrick Cordingley, who commanded the brigade - the renowned Desert Rats - in 1991, believes that Iraq poses no imminent threat to Britain or its interests and that "the case for war has not yet been made by the politicians".

Gen Cordingley told The Telegraph: "I'm absolutely opposed to a war. I feel very strongly that it is wrong. There is no justification for sending British troops to Iraq."

He doubted that the dossier of evidence against the Iraqi regime - to be released by Tony Blair on Tuesday - would prove the case for war. "I don't think they have much, frankly," he said.

It is understood that Gen Cordingley also has grave concerns about the number of casualties that could result from having to fight all the way to Baghdad.

Based on his forecast from 1991 that military casualties in a full-scale conflict could amount to 15 per cent, a suggested British and American invasion force of 250,000 troops could suffer more than 37,000 casualties.

In the event in 1991, the predicted battles between two large armies did not materialise and allied casualties numbered fewer than 250. The United States lost 148 men and Britain 24 - nine of them to US friendly fire.

Gen Cordingley, 58, is the first retired senior Army officer and Gulf War veteran to condemn the Government's stance on a possible Iraq war.

The Telegraph has learnt, however, of a growing unease among senior British officers. One serving officer said that Britain and the US should embark on a war only with the sanction of the UN.

He said: the Army is apolitical and will do as it's told. But there is concern that an invasion of Iraq could totally destabilise the entire region. Saddam Hussein has been contained for 10 years.

The question being asked is, 'Why choose war now?' - especially when there's no proof that he's linked to al-Qa'eda.

"There is also growing frustration that, while the Americans appear to be making all sort of plans for an invasion, the British military is completely in the dark. Nothing has come down from the top, and we need direction."

Gen Cordingley has immense experience of the complex politics and culture of the Gulf region.

In 1996, he published an account of his experiences, entitled In the Eye of the Storm, which was based on a diary he kept throughout the conflict. In the epilogue, he records the sense of inevitability of war as the military build-up began.

"Once the coalition was ready to fight, the temptation for the politicians to find a military solution to the problem must have been overwhelming," he wrote.

"The political conundrum as to whether Saddam Hussein should have been removed from power is perhaps more difficult to comment on without reference to hindsight, but I remember thinking at the time that no one wanted a vacuum in the Middle East, nor did the Americans want to be seen as king-makers."



To: Mannie who wrote (6949)9/23/2002 6:03:52 PM
From: Sully-  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
"So...in short...... Everyone has the right to their opinion, but since you use superior sources to arrive at your opinion, if they don't agree with you......then, of course.... they are wrong!"

Scott, that's not what I said, albeit, in this case, let the facts speak for themselves. Seems to me that if one person has clearly superior sources..... or the other guy has clearly inferior sources to express their opinion....... that one opinion is clearly superior to the other, NO???

Bottom line......... I didn't relentlessly post slanted, biased & extremist media littered with falsehoods, half truths & deceit that were clearly & intentionally one sided. I didn’t jump on jj for posting one dissenting POV following this relentless assault. All I did was use facts & reality to support my POV that SS's sources & his POV were clearly slanted & biased, not to mention factually flawed.......

And I did state that everyone has a right to freely express their opinion, although this freedom doesn’t automatically mean that all opinions are equal in weight. No way, no how, not in the reality I live in..... that's for sure.

I NEVER said my sources & POV were superior. In fact I mentioned twice during this discourse that I may be wrong, while presenting as factually & accurately as possible why I believed my opinion was right. I didn't resort to a plethora of obviously biased, extremist media that butchered reality with half truths, deceit & manipulation to support my POV like SS clearly did. I just exposed it for what it was (and defended jj's right to express a dissenting POV).

Hell, even Scott admitted as much..............

"This is not a 'No Spin Zone' like you'd find on The O'Reilly Factor...Are all the posters out here 'Fair and Balanced' all the time (just like the FoxNews Network)...?? This is The Golden JackASS Debate Porch and last time I checked NO rules applied here...jw or SOROS will correct me if i'm wrong...There are A LOT of JackASS's out here (and I'm definately one of them)........ Anything goes out here...Read at your own risk...=)"

Message 18018530

IMO, it's a shame to excuse oneself from any semblance of personal responsibility for what one posts & the POV's they publicly & repeatedly express....... by using the lame excuse that "anything goes" on a certain public forum...... including lies, deceit, bias & manipulation of reality in order to push one's political agenda.

Someone please explain it to me. I just don't get it.

OOF Ö¿Ö