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Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (7280)9/24/2002 11:39:19 AM
From: yard_man  Respond to of 89467
 
so many work (in the military ranks) so selflessly and then are abused for it ... here's hoping some good comes out of it



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (7280)9/24/2002 11:44:35 AM
From: Sully-  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
So what lies are they telling the families that know their
spouse/child was sent to Afghanistan? And wouldn't Gore &
his ilk be all over this for political gain?



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (7280)9/24/2002 11:45:07 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
11:07 ET U.S. lowers national terror threat to 'elevated' from 'high'

wow....I feel so much better now...=)

When is our HomeLand Security Campaign actually going to mean something..?? I wonder when we'll choose to invest in state of the art IT systems for our intelligence gathering agencies -- so they can collaborate in real time..?? I guess we'll be spending all our extra money on smart bombs and a $100 Billion war campaign to topple Saddam and engineer 'regime change' in way that may have SO MANY unintended consequences...Were Bush, Cheney, or any of the other WarHawks listening yesterday...??

Military might does NOT always solve problems.

Did you notice how 3 of the 4 highly decorated retired Generals that testified before the Senate yesterday only advocated using force against Iraq after all diplomatic measures were exhausted...They feel that it is essential to build a strong and robust coalition with Allies AND work closely with The UN...They also discussed some of the dangers of going into Iraq alone...These Generals with these views were NOT lightweights either -- I'm talking about folks like General Wesley Clark (former Supreme Allied Commander for Europe)...Clark felt that there was nothing that indicated that we should rush into Iraq and by going in alone we could bolster Al Qaeda and antagonize our enemies in the Arab world...Hmmm...Some of these retired Generals make a lot of sense to me -- and I feel they have much more credibility than some of the ChickenHawks that are so eager to fight.



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (7280)9/24/2002 12:11:52 PM
From: stockman_scott  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
The Iraq debate gets curiouser and curiouser

By Molly Ivins
Nationally Syndicated Columnist
Posted on Sun, Sep. 22, 2002

Don't you just hate it when the bad guys agree to do what we want them to? If that's not a good reason to go in and take out Saddam, name one.

But our Fearless Leader, not one to be deterred from war merely by getting what he wants, promptly moved the goalposts and issued a new list of demands that Iraq must meet, including paying reparations to Kuwait.

If you step back and look at this debate, it just gets stranger and stranger. For one thing, all the evidence is that the administration has already made up its mind and we're going into Iraq this winter. President Bush went to the United Nations and demanded that it back him; he's going to Congress to demand that it back him; and there it is. This is not a debate -- it's Bush in his "You're either with us or against us" mode. It is not a discussion of whether invading Iraq is either necessary or wise.

If you add up all the reasons that the administration has advanced for going after Saddam, the only thing left to say is: "We need to take out Pervez Musharraf right now!" Musharraf has destroyed democracy in his country; he's backing terrorists in India, our democratic ally; his CIA was hand-in-glove with al Qaeda; his military is riddled with militant Islamists; his madrassas teach hatred of the West; his heroes are Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler; and he not only has nukes -- he's threatened to use them.

Whereas, the Islamists hate Saddam; there's no evidence that he's connected to al Qaeda; he's broke; and his army is one-fifth the size it was the last time we beat him in a couple of days.

True, we know he has biological weapons because we gave them to him (see the depressing report in last week's Newsweek : "How We Helped Create Saddam"), and probably chemical weapons as well. The one thing sure to make him use them is an invasion; and frankly, he's likely to lob them at the Israelis. Do we have a right to make them hostages?

The man is certainly a repellent specimen, but there are lots of those around. It must be acknowledged that this is not a situation of moral clarity. Pretending that there's no moral ambiguity here is a profound disservice to both truth and reason. We have done real harm in our past dealings with Saddam -- among other things, we have now double-crossed the Kurds three times (a sextuple-cross?) Not a pretty record.

The downside to taking on Saddam is not so much getting him out as what happens next. Diplomacy is often likened to chess -- you have to be able to think several moves ahead. There's no evidence that the administration has thought past Step One.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a Republican libertarian, has come up with an impressive list of 35 questions that need to be considered. As several commentators have noted, one irony of this situation is that the only real discussion of this campaign is among Republicans. (With apologies to Rep. Denis Kucinich and Sen. John Kerry, gutless Democrats abound.) Reducing the discussion to sound bites of "chicken hawks" and "appeasers" is of no help at all.

A post-Saddam Iraq will be a mess (Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites fighting), and adding that much more instability to the Middle East is not smart. Bush claims that he wants to further democracy in the region, but every indication is that friendly regimes would be replaced by Islamists after a revolution.

The old problem, of course -- the root of the resentment -- is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. We are held to be just as responsible as they are by the Arab world. The smart way to go after Saddam is to wait at least until an Arab-Israeli settlement is reached, and that is a do-able deal.

Instead, we've let Ariel Sharon inflame the situation. More settlements on the West Bank -- now there's a genius move. (Naturally, equal credit to the suicide bombers.)

Saddam is notoriously tricky when it comes to weapons inspection. By agreeing to the return of inspectors, he has effectively agreed to U.N. Security Council Resolution 1248, from 1999, which sets a lower threshold for weapons inspections, including delays and complications. Seems to me that the first step should be to get the Security Council to beef up that resolution, even if the French won't accept an "and if you don't …" clause. Bush is the "if you don't."

The most unpleasant and unhelpful aspect of this "debate" is the implication that anyone who expresses serious doubts about this venture is unpatriotic -- and it often comes from the same people who spent eight years eaten alive with Clinton hatred. Being patriotic doesn't mean agreeing with the government. The most fundamental American right is to not agree with the government and to raise Cain about it.

I've always liked Sen. Carl Schurz's definition of patriotism at the turn of the 18th century: "My country right or wrong. When right, to keep right; when wrong, to put right."

----------------------------------------------------
Molly Ivins writes for Creators Syndicate. 5777 W. Century Blvd., Suite 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045

dfw.com



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (7280)9/24/2002 12:31:57 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
Assume the US has won its war: that's when the nightmare begins

A 'liberated' Iraq could end up like Weimar Germany

By James Fallows
Comment
The Guardian
Tuesday September 24, 2002
guardian.co.uk

Recently I interviewed several dozen authoritative people about what could be expected in Iraq after the US dislodged Saddam Hussein. The assumption behind the question was that sooner or later the US would go to war - and that even with limited allied support US forces would win. What then? The people I asked were spies, Arabists, oil company officials, soldiers and diplomats. Some supported a pre-emptive war against Iraq; more were opposed.

The clearest theme to emerge was that even if the war were quick, escape from the post-war obligations would be difficult and slow. Some members of the "war party" in the US now stress this as an advantage. In this view, a long-term American commitment to "remake" Iraq - as Japan and Germany were remade 50 years ago - is the first step to real democracy throughout the Arab world. The majority of soldiers, diplomats, and Arabists laugh aside that possibility and view long-term presence as an inevitability rather than an opportunity. So what are the biggest problems Iraq's opponents would face after victory?

The greatest concern on the first day of peace would arise from the last days of war. The particular fear is that on his way down, Saddam Hussein would use chemical weapons not only tactically, to slow attacking US soldiers, but also strategically, against Israel. "What's the worst nightmare at the start?" a retired American general who fought in the Gulf war asked me rhetorically. "Saddam Hussein hits Israel, and [Ariel] Sharon hits some Arab city, maybe in Saudi Arabia. Then you have the all-out religious war that the Islamic fundamentalists and maybe some Likudniks are itching for."

In the long term, Iraq's prospects would be brighter without Saddam. But in the short term many Iraqis would be dead, wounded, desperate. "You are going to start right out with a humanitarian crisis," says William Nash, a retired two-star general. He was in charge of post-combat relief operations in southern Iraq after the Gulf war. "In the drive to Baghdad, you are going to do a lot of damage. Either you will destroy a great deal of infrastructure by trying to isolate the battlefield or they will destroy it, trying to delay your advance. Right away you need food, water and shelter - these people have to survive. Because you started the war, you have accepted a moral responsibility for them."

From the US perspective, it wouldn't really matter whether the war left Saddam himself dead, captured or in exile. What would matter is that his whereabouts were known. "My nightmare scenario," Merrill McPeak, former US airforce chief of staff, told me, "is that we jump people in, seize the airport, bring in the 101st [Airborne Division] and we can't find Saddam Hussein. Then we've got Osama and Saddam out there, both of them achieving mythical heroic status in the Arab world just by surviving. It's not a trivial problem to actually grab the guy, and it ain't over until you've got him in handcuffs."

When the lid comes off after a long period of repression, people may be grateful and elated. But they may also be furious and vengeful. William Nash, who served in Kuwait, Bosnia and Kosovo, says: "The victim becomes the aggressor. You try to control it, but you'll just find the bodies in the morning." Occupation forces typically require one soldier or police officer for each 500 local people, plus one supervisor for each 10 policemen. For the 23 million Iraqis, that would mean a force of about 50,000. Providing enough occupiers on a sustained basis, without allies, would be surprisingly hard for America's all-volunteer military. The military's headcount has continually gone down, even as its level of foreign commitment has gone up.

Iraq has no obvious sources of new leadership. The main resistance to Saddam's regime comes from the Kurdish chieftains of the north. But their main impulse has been separatist: they seek autonomy from the government in Baghdad and feud with one another. The leading Iraqi exile group, the Iraqi National Congress, survives on money from the US government and lacks substantial support inside the country. "The opposition outside Iraq is almost as divided, weak and irrelevant as the White Russians in the 1920s," says Anthony Cordesman, of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. "What you will need is a man with a black moustache," a retired British spy who once worked in the region told me.

Whoever is in charge in Baghdad will need to keep the Kurds of the north from rebelling, so that Turkey does not carry out its long-standing threat to invade and put down such a rebellion itself. Whoever is in charge will need to defend the long southern border with Iran, where half a million soldiers died during the 1980s. "As the occupying power, we will be responsible for the territorial integrity of the Iraqi state," says Charles William Maynes, of the Eurasia Foundation in Washington. "That means we will have to move our troops to the border with Iran. At that point Iran becomes our permanent enemy."

Iraq's occupiers would soon have to launch their version of "de-Nazification": identifying and punishing those who were personally responsible for the old regime's brutality, without a Khmer Rouge-style purge of everyone associated with the former government. The occupiers would also begin an Iraqi version of "loya-jirgasation" - that is, supporting a "grand council" or convention like the one at which the Afghans selected the leadership for their transitional government.

They would face a dilemma: either they could turn authority over to the new government whether or not it was ready, as is now happening in Afghanistan; or they could settle, like Douglas MacArthur in Japan, for a root-and-branch transformation of political culture, with nothing like the broad international support for such an effort that MacArthur enjoyed.

Iraq has tremendous oil reserves, which ultimately can finance its reconstruction and development. Occupiers would need to be aware of the threat of sabotage, especially in the Kurdish regions, where many wells are found. They would also need to help Iraq escape its tremendous burden of debt. Iraq was directed by the UN to pay reparations for the damage it inflicted on Kuwait during the Gulf war. Estimates of these obligations vary, but the very range - $200bn to $400bn - illustrates the problem. As part of regime change, the US would have to help solve this problem. Otherwise, "liberated" Iraq would be left like Weimar Germany after the treaty of Versailles, crushed by unpayable reparations.

___________________________________________________

· James Fallows writes for the Atlantic Monthly. A longer version of this article appears in the November issue, available online at www.theatlantic.com

JFallows@theatlantic.com