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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: GST who wrote (47718)	9/28/2002 1:56:04 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

By the way, the same standard would apply if you and I met on the street and I decided to blow your head off. The actual standard for the use of force is "reasonable apprehension of imminent bodily harm to yourself or to others." In other words, if you see your sworn enemy standing next to your wife while holding a bomb, you don't have to wait for him to throw it.

To: GST who wrote (47718)	9/28/2002 1:58:35 PM
From: Ilaine	Respond to of 281500

>>How Saddam Tried to Kill Bush I By Terence P. Jeffrey The Toyota Land Cruiser had been meticulously packed and wired with enough plastic explosives to make the Oklahoma City truck bomb look like a firecracker by comparison. In early 1993, this was Saddam Hussein’s ultimate secret weapon. If detonated, it would kill people 400 yards away. It was a conventional weapon perhaps, but a weapon of mass destruction nonetheless. On April 10, 1993, agents of the Iraqi Intelligence Service handed the keys of this death mobile to a team of specially recruited operatives. On April 13, under cover of darkness, some of these operatives started up the vehicle and began a secret trek across the southern Iraqi desert toward the Kuwaiti frontier. Their intended target: George Herbert Walker Bush, just-retired President of the United States. The day before Saddam’s Land Cruiser started creeping toward Kuwait—probably from somewhere near the southern Iraqi city of Basra—a chartered Kuwaiti Airlines 747 had taken off from Ellington Field in Houston, Tex. Its cargo: former President Bush, former First Lady Barbara Bush, presidential son Neil Bush, his wife Sharon, and future First Lady Laura Bush. The plane was scheduled to stop over in Washington, D.C., to pick up former White House Chief of Staff John Sununu and former Secretary of State James Baker.<< More at: humanevents.org

To: GST who wrote (47718)	9/29/2002 12:06:33 AM
From: D. Long	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

This is fundamental to the UN. If this condition is not met, then the there is no self-defense. There is no such condition. I just quoted the relevant self-defense clause in the UN Charter to JohnM yesterday. The traditions of international relations have long included conditions considered to be Acts of War that involved NO "imminent" threat, as has been recently defined at least. If we want to consider the use of force in self-defense to be only valid when confronting "imminent threats" then the history of the United States, let alone the rest of the world, is chock full of wrongful wars. John considers "imminent threat" to be a threat to the continental United States, if I understand him correctly. But under that standard, only two wars were justified as being "imminent threats" - the Mexican War and the Civil War, because they were the only wars that threatened the territorial integrity of the continental United States. Not even the War of 1812 would suffice since the British didn't threaten the continental United States until after we declared war. So unless you decide to define "imminent threat" a little closer to the much broader acceptance of what constitutes "self defense" as enshrined in such Acts of War as crimes on the high sea and violation of the person of diplomatic staff, you're really just making this up. I apologize for being so curt yesterday, I was a bit steamed at other matters. Derek