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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (60495)	10/1/2002 2:56:47 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Yes, we negotiate, take exception, and edit as we go along, but the idea that we create our own values is just wrong. Obviously we don't start with a clean slate. And the society in which we grow up demands certain choices of values and all but pretty much obviates others. It requires that we have a source of income, for example. But most of it is a choice even if the only choice is to conform or not. Perhaps we're only talking about a glass half full or half empty here. I don't know. But I don't buy the notion that society has much in the way of moral claims on us. It just acts to punish us when we don't conform.

To: Neocon who wrote (60495)	10/1/2002 4:04:46 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Well, no, I, at least, didn't get the point of view you were pushing until now, since this is really the first time you have articulated quite this clearly. But ... "Since values are pre- given, ..." Huh? Since? Since when? Values are pre-given by what, or by whom? You can't use the passive tense at at time like this. Please recast as "Since [fill in the blank] pre-gives values to humans..." "...and necessary to internalize in order to get started as a moral being,..." So a person can't even get started to be a moral being until they have internalized the values which are pre-given by something. Right? Just want to be clear about the tenents of moral empiricism. "... the idea that we create our own values is just wrong..." So who or what DOES create our own values? Society? But what is society but us? How can society create anything? Only individuals can create anything. They may share them and work together to refine them, but each value must initially come from one person starting out saying something, just as the journey of a thousand miles . . ..